The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

Ghostdreams — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:29:42 -0000

I&#39m terribly sorry for the grief Frankcesa&#39s family is suffering but according my belief system, the soul does not enter into the fetus until the time of birth so IMHO this is a terrible and heartbreaking added loss, but I don&#39t believe it constitutes murder.
My two cents worth,
Ghost

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

Ghostdreams — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:29:42 -0000

I'm terribly sorry for the grief Frankcesa's family is suffering but according my belief system, the soul does not enter into the fetus until the time of birth so IMHO this is a terrible and heartbreaking added loss, but I don't believe it constitutes murder.
My two cents worth,
Ghost

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

azmom3x — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:10:34 -0000

Because "victim no 14", as you call him, had a heartbeat that was pumping blood through his tiny body. If she had of lived and given birth to him on a remote island where there were no BIRTH CERTIFICATES, he&#39d still be a living person still capable of being killed. So your pathetic attempt at demeaning and devaluing his precious, innocent life is feeble and hollow.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

azmom3x — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:10:34 -0000

Because "victim no 14", as you call him, had a heartbeat that was pumping blood through his tiny body. If she had of lived and given birth to him on a remote island where there were no BIRTH CERTIFICATES, he'd still be a living person still capable of being killed. So your pathetic attempt at demeaning and devaluing his precious, innocent life is feeble and hollow.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

JeffersonDavis — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:50:36 -0000

"I mourn this unborn child, as I mourn the execution of John Allen Muhammed, the D.C. Sniper. A consistent pro-life ethic can do no other."

I can sorta respect that, redbus - well stated.

But I have to ask one question prior to absolute approval (not that you are looking for MY approval mind you):

Is it truly the same to mourn the death of an innocent, as it is to mourn the death of a non-innocent?
Yes, death is death. But you tend to feel differently when a loved one dies in a car accident than when they die of a long bout of cancer. Likewise, if a baby is killed, the feeling would be different than if a convicted cold-blooded murderer were killed.

Perhaps I&#39m wrong. Regardless I do respect your opinion.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

JeffersonDavis — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:50:36 -0000

"I mourn this unborn child, as I mourn the execution of John Allen Muhammed, the D.C. Sniper. A consistent pro-life ethic can do no other."

I can sorta respect that, redbus - well stated.

But I have to ask one question prior to absolute approval (not that you are looking for MY approval mind you):

Is it truly the same to mourn the death of an innocent, as it is to mourn the death of a non-innocent?
Yes, death is death. But you tend to feel differently when a loved one dies in a car accident than when they die of a long bout of cancer. Likewise, if a baby is killed, the feeling would be different than if a convicted cold-blooded murderer were killed.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Regardless I do respect your opinion.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

JimTreacher — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:09:14 -0000

Are you talking about John Allen Muhammad? He had 7 years to repent. If he didn&#39t do it in that time, what makes you think he ever would?

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

JimTreacher — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:06:58 -0000

But you think this guy will.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

redbus — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:19:59 -0000

Yes, and dead men don&#39t repent.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

$270502 — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:09:14 -0000

Are you talking about John Allen Muhammad? He had 7 years to repent. If he didn't do it in that time, what makes you think he ever would?

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

$270502 — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:06:58 -0000

But you think this guy will.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

JimTreacher — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:59:08 -0000

This unborn child didn&#39t murder 10 people.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

spirasol — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:51:25 -0000

Yes, CP, the tragedy deepens...........and will deepen even more when the shooter, also a victim, is slain by the military. They may not do so, particularly by recent reports, as the powers-that-be seem to have opted on the side of increasing their intelligence rather than protecting their soldiers; that they were well aware of his activities and could have detained or questioned him, thereby preventing the situation from occurring. Maybe they were intending to track his activities in Afghanistan...... ????

While heartfelt, the loss of Velez and the little soul inside her, particularly for her family, I feel it necessary nonetheless to say something about the underlying politics. The issue of whether or not one believes in the need/right for a woman to decide and the question of when, if ever, that should/could be done-- colors the way one reads the story. I know plenty of mothers/fathers who have, for a variety of reasons lost the little life and all its promise, and who set out to mark their hearts and mark the ground of their existence and their passing. It is thought of more normally as a personal matter, and they do this with ritual, photos, drawings, prayer and meditation, among other ways individually determined. The newspapers, however, and large institutions, the military are operating under a different set of rules..........I guess we might call them what science has determined about a new life......I don&#39t think it would hurt us to completely adopt and embrace a new way forward where all life is honored from conception.........but be sure and involve the coroner, the funeral director, the doctors, nurses, insurance companies, etc., etc......

What we are really taking about here is honoring and protecting innocence .........and if you go there with open eyes and open heart you will be crushed to realize what we do to each other as human beings is irreconcilable..........so we don&#39t, we justify-- some killings MUST be done, we say, softly, regrettably......

I wonder if the innocence of the Major&#39s family and friends should be preserved.....and I wonder if any American soldier of Arab/Muslim descent can ever be trusted again. And I wonder of this loss of innocence which I don&#39t believe exists in the mind of the military, but in the mind of that Arab/Muslim soldier who thought, just for a minute, and maybe longer, that they/we trusted him, that he wouldn&#39t have to look over his shoulder at every turn........I wouldn&#39t say it is complete, but how could the soldier not be aware of his birthmark, his origins, and the suffering of his own people, often at the hands of the military he is now serving under.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

redbus — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:19:59 -0000

Yes, and dead men don't repent.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

$270502 — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:59:08 -0000

This unborn child didn't murder 10 people.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

spirasol — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:51:25 -0000

Yes, CP, the tragedy deepens...........and will deepen even more when the shooter, also a victim, is slain by the military. They may not do so, particularly by recent reports, as the powers-that-be seem to have opted on the side of increasing their intelligence rather than protecting their soldiers; that they were well aware of his activities and could have detained or questioned him, thereby preventing the situation from occurring. Maybe they were intending to track his activities in Afghanistan...... ????

While heartfelt, the loss of Velez and the little soul inside her, particularly for her family, I feel it necessary nonetheless to say something about the underlying politics. The issue of whether or not one believes in the need/right for a woman to decide and the question of when, if ever, that should/could be done-- colors the way one reads the story. I know plenty of mothers/fathers who have, for a variety of reasons lost the little life and all its promise, and who set out to mark their hearts and mark the ground of their existence and their passing. It is thought of more normally as a personal matter, and they do this with ritual, photos, drawings, prayer and meditation, among other ways individually determined. The newspapers, however, and large institutions, the military are operating under a different set of rules..........I guess we might call them what science has determined about a new life......I don't think it would hurt us to completely adopt and embrace a new way forward where all life is honored from conception.........but be sure and involve the coroner, the funeral director, the doctors, nurses, insurance companies, etc., etc......

What we are really taking about here is honoring and protecting innocence .........and if you go there with open eyes and open heart you will be crushed to realize what we do to each other as human beings is irreconcilable, unconscionable..........so we don't, we justify-- some killings MUST be done, we say, softly, regrettably......

I wonder if the innocence of the Major's family and friends should be preserved.....and I wonder if any American soldier of Arab/Muslim descent can ever be trusted again. And I wonder of this loss of innocence which I don't believe exists in the mind of the military, but in the mind of that Arab/Muslim soldier who thought, just for a minute, and maybe longer, that they/we trusted him, that he wouldn't have to look over his shoulder at every turn........I wouldn't say it is complete, but how could the soldier not be aware of his birthmark, his origins, and the suffering of his own people, often at the hands of the military he is now serving under.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

roro80 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:32:40 -0000

I think most on this board know that I am vehemently pro-choice. However, it is obvious from the story that this young woman had made the choice to carry this fetus to become a child, and she and her family were excited to do so. All her choices were taken away from her, and the loss of the fetus as well as the young soldier carrying it are equally heartbreaking.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

redbus — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:01:46 -0000

Well-said, Dr. E. I mourn this unborn child, as I mourn the execution of John Allen Muhammed, the D.C. Sniper. A consistent pro-life ethic can do no other.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

D. E.Rodriguez — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:38:36 -0000

You make a good point, dr.e. But, most important, what a caring thought!

Dorian

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

AustinRoth — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:29:58 -0000

I think that is a simple prosecutorial-oriented move. Classifying an unborn child as a death is not uncommon when pursuing murder charges, but certainly not for, say, using the carpool lane (yes, I choose something banal on purpose, rather than something more in)

It does show the inconstancy society has for the classification of unborn children, i.e., sometimes they are persons, sometimes they are not.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

tidbits — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:15:30 -0000

You have it right, Dr. E.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

roro80 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:32:40 -0000

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

Don Quijote — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:29:17 -0000

No birth certificate for victim no 14, if you haven&#39t been born how can you be killed?

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

redbus — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:01:46 -0000

Well-said, Dr. E. I mourn this unborn child, as I mourn the execution of John Allen Muhammed, the D.C. Sniper. A consistent pro-life ethic can do no other.

Re: 14 Killed at Fort Hood, Not 13 As Reported. Why?

Dorian — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:38:36 -0000

You make a good point, dr.e. But, most important, what a caring thought!

Dorian