The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

runasim — Fri, 16 May 2008 20:42:29 -0000

CStanley,
I answered this elsewhere, and I' don't have the energy to go throudh tthe whole rationale over again.

The issue of preconditions is a whole separate topic,
I understand the rationale, but I can't help but notice that they are not producing the desired results, not with Iran and not with Hamas.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

CStanley — Fri, 16 May 2008 10:39:30 -0000

The complaint as I said in another thread, runasim, is that if the shoe doesn't fit in terms of Bush's comment and Obama's policies, then why all the outrage? If everyone agrees that appeasement is bad, then 'everyone' is exempt from the critiicsm that Bush made. I think there's a legitimate basis for saying that Bush criticized a caricature of a specific type of diplomacy, and it's fair enough for Obama supporters to assert that they do not believe that Obama favors policies of appeasement.

On the flip side, though, Bush's policy toward diplomatic talks is being completely misrepresented as well. Everyone here breathlessly decries his policy of "NOT TALKING TO OUR ENEMIES" which ignores the fact that Bush's administration has negotiated with many of our enemies, including NK as well as...wait for it....Iran. We were part of multi-party talks to work toward agreements on regional security for Iraq, at Iraq's request, with Iran also in attendence. What everyone ignores when they give blanket condemnation for Bush's policies is that he has never said that we don't negotiate with our enemies or even that we will not negotiate with Iran- it's just specific negotiations that have been put on hold until or unless Iran will agree to certain preconditions. So both sides are guilty of completely mischaracterizing the others' position* and then arguing against the caricature of it instead of the actual position.

*Of course I think there's some reason for confusion on what Obama's stance actually is, because as I noted above, he clearly stated in the past that he'd meet with Ahmadinejad without precondition, and now he's reversed that and claims that he was misrepresented even though it's all right there in the debate video- and his Democratic opponents criticized him for it then and he apparently didn't see the need to set the record straight- until now, when he's either reconsidered and changed his mind or noticed that it will be a liability for him in the general election if he doesn't change his position. Curiously, his newly stated position is not much different than the Bush administrations- that we will hold high level negotiations with Ahmedinajad only if they will agree to stop their nuclear program.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

runasim — Fri, 16 May 2008 00:51:15 -0000

AR said:
"So, now the simple fact of holding and stating a viewpoint, appeasement does not work, is somehow a 'new low amid low politics'.
God, talk about thin-skinned."

Since NO ONE is suggesting appeasement and NO ONE is supporitng appeasement,, while EVERYONE agrees about appeasement.
What, exactly is your complaint?,

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

ChrisWWW — Thu, 15 May 2008 23:51:52 -0000

Obambi is a babe in the woods on foreign policy---a simpleton without bearings who shouldn't be trusted with grown-up toys.

Dave,
Pop quiz, who said this:
"See the irony is what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it's over."

And for extra credit:
"One of the things I would do if I were president would be to sit the Shiites and the Sunnis down and say, 'Stop the bullshit,'"

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

HappySurge — Thu, 15 May 2008 21:53:05 -0000

I'm so sorry. I never heard that before even though I know about Native Son.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

jdledell — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:36:34 -0000

Here is the Washington Post link I forgot.

http://www.washingtonpost.c...

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

jdledell — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:34:34 -0000

Bush's comments about not talking with Iran and subsequently supported by McCain simply do not make sense logically or historically. In fact Sec of Defense Robert Gates yesterday made a speech(see WP link below) arguing for dialogue with Iran. Good Grief, Nixon went to China to meet with Mao while the genocidal Cultural Revolution was in progress. Nixon negotiated with the North Vietnamese while they were killing Americans, Eisenhower negotiated with the Chinese over Korea after their military assault push the Americans back south in Korea. Nixon negotiated with the Russians while they were supplying N. Vietnam with arms. Reagan negotiated with the Iranian mullahs and gave them weapons for cash for the Contras. Reagan also negotiated arms agreements with our enemy USSR.

This list could on and on but the idea that one does not negotiate with enemies is stupid. Hell, just think what might have happened if Kennedy did not negotiate with the USSR over the Cuban missles - remember it was a tit for tat with our removing missles from Turkey.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

DLS — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:27:12 -0000

(and I'm far, far more kind than I ever need be about the kids' misbehavior)

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

DLS — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:26:32 -0000

Yep, the kiddies are being silly, right on cue...

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

AustinRoth — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:13:30 -0000

So, now the simple fact of holding and stating a viewpoint, appeasement does not work, is somehow a 'new low amid low politics'.

God, talk about thin-skinned.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

lurxst — Thu, 15 May 2008 18:44:08 -0000

Marlowecan is correct, collaborator is perhaps too strong a label. Grandpa Bush simply was the money handler for the actual Nazi collaborator, Thyssen, acting in his capacity as director of Union Banking Corporation to help hide their assets. At least until Union Banking Corporation's assets were seized by the US government in October, 1942.

http://www.randomhouse.com/...

1942, a full year into the war and Prescott Bush was still helping Thyssen hide assets to protect Thyssen should Germany lose. All the other big American corporations had dumped their dealings with the controlling German party and their supporters.

I don't buy into the belief that corporations are just amoral faceless entities. They are run by people. People like Prescott Bush. So if there is a more appropriate term than collaborator I am open for suggestions. Enabler? Facilitator? Bag man?

I am not usually a big proponent of nazi arguments on the web but I have to stick a pin in blatant hypocrisy.

I like all the arguments that somehow try to whitewash W's utter stupidity in this matter by holding that citizens and presidents are held to equal standards.

News Flash: We aren't.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

JSpencer — Thu, 15 May 2008 18:27:19 -0000

I see DLS is in Prime Grade A troll mode today - which is good for a chuckle, but is a little too predictable for more than that. As for GWB succumbing to Godwins Law? It's only surprising this hasn't come sooner and more often considering how low the bar has been placed in recent years. I expect we will see a desperate wallowing in that sort of thing over the course of the general election campaign though. And god forbid Obama would neglect to embrace all the strategies that have failed to work so far!

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

daveinboca — Thu, 15 May 2008 18:14:34 -0000

When you have a presidential candidate like Biden who basically disqualified himself by his HUGE STUPID mouth using the BS word, I think Bush is on to something.

Especially since The Speaker of the House disqualified herself from any serious commentary on the issue by going IN A BURKA to the terrorist-wannabe Stick-Insect Assad, whose country is aiding and abetting terrorists in Lebanon & Gaza right now as I write this.

Obambi is a babe in the woods on foreign policy---a simpleton without bearings who shouldn't be trusted with grown-up toys. Let him season until he gets his mouth & brain in synch with NATIONAL SECURITY as a minimal concept.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

CStanley — Thu, 15 May 2008 17:30:01 -0000

Marlowe, I'm just curious- do you feel that Obama was right the first time when he clearly said that he'd hold highest level diplomatic talks with Iran without precondition, or do you agree with the position the way his staff and proxies are currently reframing it, to talk to Iran only after they agree to disband their nuclear program (which, curiously, is precisely the position of the Bush administration?)

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Tully — Thu, 15 May 2008 17:15:55 -0000

Hm, he didn't name anyone and the only Senator he cited was the one he quoted, a REPUBLICAN who's been dead for almost seventy years.

It's only an "attack on Obama" if Obama wants to accept the description of himself as being an appeaser. Does he? Really? He can certainly make his own case for or against that description. (For gradeschoolers watching this program, here's the translation: "You mean ME? I didn't say it was you. I am not! Looks like a duck... Am not! " Repeat, ad nauseum. )

Otherwise it's just more noise as we enter the mindless-screaming pahse of the campaign cycle.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

RememberNovember — Thu, 15 May 2008 16:38:14 -0000

So how's it feel to be in the 28-32 percentile of Kool-Aid drinkers? Seriously,
in Norse mythology Trolls are only active at night and turn to stone by day.

You'll find, if you have been watching the primaries, that millions center-left , independents and Republicans have woken from wool-covered coma this administration has pulled over our eyes. We are mad as hell and aren't gonna take it. Hear that? That's the sound of change coming....in the words of Lee Iaccoca- Lead, Follow or get the F*** out the way!

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Slamfu — Thu, 15 May 2008 16:22:30 -0000

Yea, the treason metaphor was pretty lame. But then so was the comparison of dealing diplomatically with our rivals appeasement. One was done by a pundit, one was done by the president of the United States who should know better, but unfortunately does not. Considering Bush himself has done so much to point out the errors in a shoot first approach to international policy, he REALLY should know better. In fact, all I heard was:

"My democratic successor would likely to do things radically different from the ways I've done which have made a mess of the middle east. He's obviously an idiot for not following in my footsteps and screwing up like I have. "

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Marlowecan — Thu, 15 May 2008 16:10:05 -0000

BTW: To be fair...from an historical and political perspective...Obama is totally right about talking with Iran and anyone else. Bush is TOTALLY wrong.

Senator Obama probably understands that states are not monolithic. There are diverse factions in Iran, as in the US.

For example: To continue with the Nazi analogy... At several points prior to WWII...during the Rhineland crisis...and the Sudetenland...the German High Command was in contact with Great Britain. The highest levels of the German military were prepared to overthrow Hitler and arrest all member of the SS.

Had Great Britain shown backbone...and been willing to talk to the Oberkommand...WWII and the Holocaust would not have happened. Hitler would have been arrested and executed.

In short: Obama is probably right on this one...Bush is probably wrong.

(My complaint above was with the "political treason" reference...and the disturbing adulation of Obama on the Left).

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Marlowecan — Thu, 15 May 2008 16:00:04 -0000

The money quote in the article Joe cites is this:
"President Bush went on foreign soil today, and committed what I consider an act of political treason: Comparing the candidate of the U.S. opposition party to appeasers of Nazi Germany..."

As Joe notes, Democrats travelling abroad have not hesitated to criticize Bush brutally. (see Pelosi & Lantos' ill-fated mission to the Middle East to establish an "alternative Democratic foreign policy". Very very few Democrats have condemned this.

However, to criticise Sen. Obama abroad is an "act of political treason"?

Treason can only be performed against one's country...and is often a capital offense.

So...to criticize Obama is now an Act of Treason for those on the Left (who have NEVER hesitated to slam the current U.S. President abroad!).

Is Senator Obama now the United States?

Lurxst said: "Considering that the Bush family were Nazi collaborators, its expecially distasteful to hear Bush using Nazi analogies."

Hahaha...the BushHitler meme. Grandpa Bush served as a director for some of Thyssen's front companies in the 30s until they were seized in the war. I gather some Holocaust survivors are suing President Bush for 40 billion for his family's alleged profiting from slave labour during the war (which would be difficult as said company's were shut by the US govt). There is, BTW, no proof that Bush grandpere was ever a "Nazi collaborator". Seriously...the elevators in my apartment building are made by Thyssen...can the residents of my building be sued?

In short: President Bush can be accused of being a Nazi freely, by Democrats at home and abroad.

As WIll Bunch says in Philly.com: For Senator Obama to be criticized is an ACT OF "POLITICAL TREASON"!

As Godwin's law has been broken already, I will go further with the analogy:

For criticism of Obama to be treason, Obama must be identified with the United States of America.
The United States is Senator Obama. Senator Obama is the United States.
One people. One country. One Obama.

All criticism of Obama is therefore "political treason"!

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

T-Steel — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:51:57 -0000

President Bush has opened up a Pandora's Box in American politics. Don't get mad if the same is done to the candidate you may support in the future by the standing president.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

lurxst — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:45:59 -0000

Considering that the Bush family were Nazi collaborators, its expecially distasteful to hear Bush using Nazi analogies.

Diplomacy is not appeasement, something the Bush administration has refused to understand.' Diplomacy doesn't sell tanks and bombers.

Such a brazen reference to US politics while addressing a foreign nation is the depths of abuse of the trust of the US population.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

PWT — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:39:44 -0000

Great, I came up with an original nickname. Yea me!

Bigger Thomas is the main character in the novel, 'Native Son'. My view is that Mr. Obama is Bigger Thomas and that the Dalton family is a proxy for the United States of America. However, this time, we ain't gonna give him the keys to the car.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

PWT — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:38:37 -0000

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Slamfu — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:38:29 -0000

"This is something so obvious even George W. Bush can get it right"

Really? OMFG REALLY? Are you insane or just stupid? Turn on the news pal, look up some archived footage from 2003 on. Note its the SAME in content, language, and where are at in terms of progress in the GWOT as today. If anything we've backslid using Bush's ideal version of interntaional policymaking. At what point do you pro war folks take a minute to examine the facts and say the truly obvious, "This isn't working, maybe we should try a differnt tact."

Talking is not surrendering. No nations are going to be ceded to Iranian expansion. None of these countries is going to invade its neighbors, much less us, without a swift and crushing response from the world a la Gulf War I. How utterly obvious does it have to be for you gusy to see the shoot first talk later approach has been boning us ever since Bush began implementing it. Don't you guys ever care about actual results instead of tough talk and shoot from the hip policy that gets us nowhere?

P.S. - I am VERY pro-Israel and have not much more than contempt for the fuedal backwards and self destructive ways of their neighbors in the region. I'm ok for wars, as long as they are not just because a leader is too lazy to try work things out in other ways first.

Re: Bush’s Comments Made About Democrats Abroad: A New Low Amid Low Politics

Mike_P — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:33:57 -0000

Uh DLS, I'd like to note for the record that the citizens you call "The rabid anti-war left-wing fringe in this country," and "anti-Bush™" now comprise way more than 60% of the population.