The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:22:53 -0000

Once again, Dr. J.... I cannot speak for the Catholic Church... They&#39ve got many issues within that are not Biblically in line.

Should they stop their social work if "they don&#39t get their way"?
Absolutely not!!!!! Social work is not for "them". It&#39s Christ&#39s command to do, regardless.
(And I think that was your main point, which I obviously missed)

They are to help members of the Church first, and then everyone else in the community - which includes homosexuals. But you have to remember one thing. If any of their work is done in such a manner that condones or furthers the homosexual cause (as normal acceptable behavior) then they cannot be expected to do it.

Separation of Church and State doesn&#39t only cover the government touting religion - it also covers the government impeding religion.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:22:53 -0000

Once again, Dr. J.... I cannot speak for the Catholic Church... They've got many issues within that are not Biblically in line.

Should they stop their social work if "they don't get their way"?
Absolutely not!!!!! Social work is not for "them". It's Christ's command to do, regardless.
(And I think that was your main point, which I obviously missed)

They are to help members of the Church first, and then everyone else in the community - which includes homosexuals. But you have to remember one thing. If any of their work is done in such a manner that condones or furthers the homosexual cause (as normal acceptable behavior) then they cannot be expected to do it.

Separation of Church and State doesn't only cover the government touting religion - it also covers the government impeding religion.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Dr J — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:45:04 -0000

Jefferson, I&#39m happy to talk about homosexuals, but I&#39m still focused on your claim that the Catholics had no choice but to dump the poor. You have not made a convincing case that theology requires it, nor have you shown Christians taking a comparably hard line with respect to other sins.

I think I&#39ve given you enough chances to defend the point, and you&#39re neither succeeding nor backing off of it. So I&#39m going to stop badgering you about it.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:00:55 -0000

No requirement in the Bible for health insurance.
There IS a requirement that we are not to perpetuate sin or condone it.

If there is a market for health insurance for homosexual couples, then why not start the company yourself? You can serve the needs of homosexuals and become a millionaire. It is perfectly legal for an insurance company to do that right now. Nothing stopping you if you feel so strongly about it. Perhaps George Soros can bankroll it for you. My point..... It can be done now. Homosexuals can make things legally binding through an attorney right now.

As I&#39ve said so many times before. This isn&#39t about what homosexuals want or can get legally.
This is about the raising of a sexual fetish to normality. This has been the tactic of the left since, well, forever.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Dr J — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:48:28 -0000

Okay, how many unrepentant gossips did they drop from their insurance rolls last year?

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:20:30 -0000

Well.... you asked me to "Show me the church that will refuse spousal benefits for a wife who&#39s a known gossip, or for a husband who dishonors his parents.".

I will show you a Church that follows the Bible - that speaks where it speaks and is silent where it is silent.
They refuse "spousal rights" to those who do not fit the qualifications as laid our in the Bible.
They allow "spousal rights&#39 to those who qualify per the Bible.

They call out all sin, especially from their own members.

It&#39s called the Lord&#39s Church or the Church of Christ.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Dr J — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:28:14 -0000

If the Catholic church were to come out and say that any of those we&#39re ok, but homosexuality is wrong - then they&#39d be hypocrites.

Actions speak louder than words, and in their actions Catholics as well as Protestants say exactly that.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:50:27 -0000

I truly can&#39t speak for the Catholics, J.

I have yet to hear a bishop or pope say that gossip is permitted - or lying, or murder, or any other sinful act. If the Catholic church were to come out and say that any of those we&#39re ok, but homosexuality is wrong - then they&#39d be hyprocrits. But the Bible does have a problem with same-sex marriage, J. It SPECIFICALLY says man-woman, and specifically condemns homosexuality. You want a Church to ok that through employment or contracts. Well, they just can&#39t do that, nor should they be expected to.

And yes, homosexuality IS the same as gossip (backbiting, it&#39s called in the Bible) and all other sin.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Dr J — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:33:05 -0000

Jefferson, I understand the "unrepentant sinner" argument, and it doesn&#39t quite go to my point. Would you support denying insurance benefits to a spouse who&#39s an inveterate fibber or an unrepentant gossip? If so, you can at least claim to be applying your expansive reading of the Bible consistently.

...that is, consistently with yourself. No church that I&#39m aware of takes the hard line against gossip that the Catholics in this story take against homosexuality. They will probably agree in the abstract that all sins are created equal and so forth, but in practice they don&#39t badger gossips like they do gays. Surely they&#39re not all out of step but you.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:03:18 -0000

Dr. J.

We all sin. Some continually search themselves in accordance with the Bible, and others do not. If we do that and correct the sinful conditions we find - we are forgiven, and are told to "depart and sin no more". If we do not, we remain in that sin and rish being lost. A lie is a sin. If you ask for forgiveness with a true heart - you are forgiven. Homosexuality is a sin. If you ask for forgiveness with a true heart - you are forgiven. With both instances, if you return to that state (leave and continue to lie, or leave and continue to live the homosexual lifestyle), you are right back where you started.

I hold that Biblical standard for all sin, J.
This isn&#39t about what Jefferson wants or does not want. This is about what God wants for His people.
Many congregations out there do how THEY feel is right, and worship how THEY feel is right. They even pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit THEIR lives. They fail to realize that they are being arrogant to think that they know better than God. It&#39s all in there - all anyone has to do is look.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:47:27 -0000

"You seem to be saying that if one group breaks the law, all groups should be punished....."

Not at all. I&#39m saying that MANY tax-exempt organizations lobby Congress. Every example I gave you has lobbied Congress.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Gootmud — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:45:04 -0000

Jefferson, I'm happy to talk about homosexuals, but I'm still focused on your claim that the Catholics had no choice but to dump the poor. You have not made a convincing case that theology requires it, nor have you shown Christians taking a comparably hard line with respect to other sins.

I think I've given you enough chances to defend the point, and you're neither succeeding nor backing off of it. So I'm going to stop badgering you about it.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:00:55 -0000

No requirement in the Bible for health insurance.
There IS a requirement that we are not to perpetuate sin or condone it.

If there is a market for health insurance for homosexual couples, then why not start the company yourself? You can serve the needs of homosexuals and become a millionaire. It is perfectly legal for an insurance company to do that right now. Nothing stopping you if you feel so strongly about it. Perhaps George Soros can bankroll it for you. My point..... It can be done now. Homosexuals can make things legally binding through an attorney right now.

As I've said so many times before. This isn't about what homosexuals want or can get legally.
This is about the raising of a sexual fetish to normality. This has been the tactic of the left since, well, forever.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Gootmud — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:48:28 -0000

Okay, how many unrepentant gossips did they drop from their insurance rolls last year?

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:20:30 -0000

Well.... you asked me to "Show me the church that will refuse spousal benefits for a wife who's a known gossip, or for a husband who dishonors his parents.".

I will show you a Church that follows the Bible - that speaks where it speaks and is silent where it is silent.
They refuse "spousal rights" to those who do not fit the qualifications as laid our in the Bible.
They allow "spousal rights' to those who qualify per the Bible.

They call out all sin, especially from their own members.

It's called the Lord's Church or the Church of Christ.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Gootmud — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:28:14 -0000

If the Catholic church were to come out and say that any of those we're ok, but homosexuality is wrong - then they'd be hypocrites.

Actions speak louder than words, and in their actions Catholics as well as Protestants say exactly that.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:50:27 -0000

I truly can't speak for the Catholics, J.

I have yet to hear a bishop or pope say that gossip is permitted - or lying, or murder, or any other sinful act. If the Catholic church were to come out and say that any of those we're ok, but homosexuality is wrong - then they'd be hyprocrits. But the Bible does have a problem with same-sex marriage, J. It SPECIFICALLY says man-woman, and specifically condemns homosexuality. You want a Church to ok that through employment or contracts. Well, they just can't do that, nor should they be expected to.

And yes, homosexuality IS the same as gossip (backbiting, it's called in the Bible) and all other sin.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

Gootmud — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:33:05 -0000

Jefferson, I understand the "unrepentant sinner" argument, and it doesn't quite go to my point. Would you support denying insurance benefits to a spouse who's an inveterate fibber or an unrepentant gossip? If so, you can at least claim to be applying your expansive reading of the Bible consistently.

...that is, consistently with yourself. No church that I'm aware of takes the hard line against gossip that the Catholics in this story take against homosexuality. They will probably agree in the abstract that all sins are created equal and so forth, but in practice they don't badger gossips like they do gays. Surely they're not all out of step but you.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:03:18 -0000

Dr. J.

We all sin. Some continually search themselves in accordance with the Bible, and others do not. If we do that and correct the sinful conditions we find - we are forgiven, and are told to "depart and sin no more". If we do not, we remain in that sin and rish being lost. A lie is a sin. If you ask for forgiveness with a true heart - you are forgiven. Homosexuality is a sin. If you ask for forgiveness with a true heart - you are forgiven. With both instances, if you return to that state (leave and continue to lie, or leave and continue to live the homosexual lifestyle), you are right back where you started.

I hold that Biblical standard for all sin, J.
This isn't about what Jefferson wants or does not want. This is about what God wants for His people.
Many congregations out there do how THEY feel is right, and worship how THEY feel is right. They even pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit THEIR lives. They fail to realize that they are being arrogant to think that they know better than God. It's all in there - all anyone has to do is look.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:47:27 -0000

"You seem to be saying that if one group breaks the law, all groups should be punished....."

Not at all. I'm saying that MANY tax-exempt organizations lobby Congress. Every example I gave you has lobbied Congress.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

adelinesdad — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:07:48 -0000

I feel like we keep talking past each other. I&#39m making a distinction between campaigning and lobbying, as the IRS does. No, "Praise the Lord and vote for McCain" is not OK. "We oppose [or support] XYZ legislation" is OK.

(As a side note, I want to clarify that I don&#39t feel strongly that religious organizations should have tax-exempt status in the first place. I don&#39t know that they should be put into the same category as other charities. However, if we do give them tax-exempt status, that status shouldn&#39t be conditioned on them keeping their mouths shut with regards to legislation that they feel affects them.)

EDIT: Sorry, I corrected a minor typo above that probably will contribute to the confusion.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

GreenDreams — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:56:20 -0000

and I think it cheapens the "religious" message when it&#39s "praise the Lord and vote for McCain." It also thus uses taxpayer money to campaign for a candidate. No problem? Then let&#39s have publicly funded elections. Out in the open. Taxpayer money for political campaigns.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

adelinesdad — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:07:48 -0000

I feel like we keep talking past each other. I'm making a distinction between campaigning and lobbying, as the IRS does. No, "Praise the Lord and vote for McCain" is not OK. "We oppose [or support] XYZ legislation" is OK.

(As a side note, I want to clarify that I don't feel strongly that religious organizations should have tax-exempt status in the first place. I don't know that they should be put into the same category as other charities. However, if we do give them tax-exempt status, that status shouldn't be conditioned on them keeping their mouths shut with regards to legislation that they feel affects them.)

EDIT: Sorry, I corrected a minor typo above that probably will contribute to the confusion.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

GreenDreams — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:56:20 -0000

and I think it cheapens the "religious" message when it's "praise the Lord and vote for McCain." It also thus uses taxpayer money to campaign for a candidate. No problem? Then let's have publicly funded elections. Out in the open. Taxpayer money for political campaigns.

Re: Can We Please Just Tax the Churches Already?

adelinesdad — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:47:35 -0000

As your link also notes:

In general, no organization may qualify for section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying). A 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status.

I think it would be difficult to argue that a "substantial" part of the activities of the Catholic church is lobbying. Sure, maybe they are supposed to fill out a form to do the lobbying that they do. I have no clue if they do or not, and in my opinion that&#39s a pretty minor detail.

So I think we&#39ve established that non-profits can engage in lobbying without losing their tax exempt status. So on to the question of what they *should* be allowed to do:

"Is it your contention that churches and other tax exempt organizations should be allowed to lobby?"

Yes. An organization should have the right to look out for its own interests, which includes arguing for or against legislation. They should be subject to any other rules that apply to lobbying, but shouldn&#39t be forbidden from doing it.