The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

superdestroyer — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:25:22 -0000

Jspencer,

Girdlock is the only time that the deficit appear to go down. Since neither party wants to support the others programs, gridlock limits the size of the government.

And McCain is still unelectable. The MSM has the collective desire to keep the elction close so that people will watch news programs. However, I am sure that the Democrats will out some Republican as a homosexual or child abuser like they have the last two elections and that will throw the swing states to Obama. I also wonder if Obama would take back the Biden pick if he had the chance. The MSM has been listening to Biden for decades and is just not interested.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

GeorgeSorwell — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 09:51:59 -0000

And how could I forget--McCain's chief economic advisor was the author of the deregulation that brought about this mess.

(The linked article was written in March, not in response to the current shock going through the financial markets.)

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

GeorgeSorwell — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 09:45:01 -0000

Superdestroyer--

I can only repeat my point: Republicans used to be the party of fiscal responsibility. Now Republican dogma is that deficits don't matter.

And current Republican strategy is, as JSpencer notes, gridlock.

Though I note you've given up the idea that McCain is unelectable.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

JSpencer — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:59:46 -0000

Disagree with your scenario SD. What you are describing would is a recipe for gridlock, hence a continuing status quo descent... that is, unless McCain were to suddenly morph back into what he claims he once was.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

superdestroyer — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:47:16 -0000

George,

since neither McCain nor Obama are promising to be like the Clinton Administration, what a happened during the Clinton Administration is not a good reason to over for either candidate. However, a government divided between McCain and the Democrats in Congress is probably more likely to control spending that a government totally dominated by Democrats.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

StockBoySF — Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:37:42 -0000

Bush 41, "Read my lips, no new taxes."

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

GeorgeSorwell — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:56:25 -0000

The Clinton ADministration went six years with no signicant changes to the tax code, no new spending programs, and no new entitlements. The last six years of the Clinton ADministration is about as close as the U.S. has ever gotten to a libertarian government.

I believe this analysis is correct.

Since I normally disagree with Superdestroyer, I felt honor-bound to highlight my agreement.

However--and I'm sure anyone still reading this thread knew there was a big but coming--it's astounding to me that the fact that this is something Democrats actually did becomes an argument against voting for Democrats.

Really, it's mind-bending.

Republicans used to be the party of fiscal responsibilty, but now they believe that, in the words of Dick Cheney, "Deficits don't matter".

Isn't that a huge part of how we got to this point economically?

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

JSpencer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:37:54 -0000

SD, if your suggestion is the economy would have spiraled down and the war ensued regardless of who was at the helm, then I reject the notion. Gore was not the intellectual lightweight Bush was for one thing, and his cabinet would have reflected that difference. The extent to which our economy is/will be stressed by the Iraq war would be non-existent as well. 8 years is plenty of time to reap penalties when an administration combines negligence with incompetence. We well may have encountered economic problems, but they might have also been moderated with some creative foresight. At any rate, I doubt most folks would buy into the idea that all the misery that took place under the Bush watch was inevitable... including the economy.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

superdestroyer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:25:22 -0000

JSpencer,

The S&P was well off of its high before January 20, 2001. The economy was slowing down due to the dot.com bust and the overspending due to Y2K. Al Gore would have face the same slowing economy and would have face the same problems after 9/11. The Clinton ADministration went six years with no signicant changes to the tax code, no new spending programs, and no new entitlements. The last six years of the Clinton ADministration is about as close as the U.S. has ever gotten to a libertarian government.

I doubt if an Obama Administration with the Democrats in charge of Congress will have anything in common with the Clinton Administration. Pork barrel spending in West Virginia and new entitlement programs will slide through without vetos when the Democrats are in charge of everything.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

JSpencer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:23:19 -0000

Let's be honest here, George Bush and friends came into power with a healthy economy. They have screwed up the economic health of this country so badly (in many ways, including a bogus war) that regardless of who comes into office, they will inherit a job of Sisyphean proportions. This is reason enough not to reward the GOP with a vote in November. It isn't rocket science folks.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

pacatrue — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:19:07 -0000

To be more productive in my comments, it's looking less and less like either campaign will a chance to implement much of either of their platforms in the first two years. With the financial collapse going on, it's looking like many, many billions of dollars for 2009 or 2010 will be allocated to keeping that system afloat. Obama will only be able to get through one or two of his programs. McCain will likely try to borrow his way out of it, but apparently, the market for our debt has been getting tighter, which could force him to delay tax cuts at best.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

ChrisWWW — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:07:15 -0000

pacatrue,
On that count, Sarah Palin had a tanning bed installed in the Governors mansion.

These Republicans are so down to earth :-)

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

pacatrue — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:00:41 -0000

I think candidates should just stop issuing platforms all together, since apparently everyone knows what the candidate will really do anyway. I hereby suggest that candidates stop debating any issues at all and instead just go after one another's patriotism or eating habits. Debating issues sounds good, but since the stated positions are apparently all campaign blather, we might as well stop pretending. I vote for all blather debates.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

jwest — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:00:35 -0000

SD,

The FairTax plan solves the open border problem.

Once enacted, we should provide free transportation to anyone who wants to come to the U.S.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

ChrisWWW — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:59:57 -0000

If you want government spending to remain as low as possible, McCain is the better bet since he will probably veto at least some of the spendng coming out of Congress.

I don't think any of these concerns are as important as ending the Iraq War (which will cut gov't spending) and creating a government run or managed health care system. The size of the federal gov't won't matter at all if our economy continues to be crushed under the every increasing cost of health care. And our energy problems will continue to get worse as long as we're hell bent on sowing discord in the oil capitals of the world.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

superdestroyer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:52:32 -0000

mlhradio,

It does not matter tht Obama says he will cut taxes on the middle class. His letting the Bush Tax cuts expire in addition to raising taxes on the rich will not offset his massive spending plans. In addition, operating open borders during a recession will create a demand for government spending while tax revenues are decreasing.

Obama will either have a much larger deficit than he claims or (more likely) push through a huge tax increase in his first year and hope the economy recovers before November 2012.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

jwest — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:51:14 -0000

Elyas,

“The "corporations don't pay taxes" argument is a simplistic talking point.”

It’s simplistic because it is so basic a truth it defies argument. All money, regardless of what it is spent on, comes from the consumers.

Yes, if taxes increase the costs will be passed on to the consumer.

Yes, if prices to the consumer increase too much, a competitor will take the business.

But the trouble is, the competitor is not across town – it’s across the ocean. The U.S. has the second highest corporate taxes. The business that we lose will go to a low tax country.

Is this too hard for the left wing to understand?

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

superdestroyer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:50:06 -0000

Chris,

The Republicans spent with abandon and will soon be irrelevant to politics. If you want government spending to remain as low as possible, McCain is the better bet since he will probably veto at least some of the spendng coming out of Congress.

If the Demcrats have 60 seats in the Senate and Obama is in the White House, they can raise taxes withouth much fear. Putting 20 million illegal aliens on the path to citizenship is offset the backlash from the decreasing number of middle class whites.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

ChrisWWW — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:42:01 -0000

The better question for McCain is whether he will veto Democratic tax increases or whether he will go along with them.

Again, you're ignoring reality. Conservatives won the tax argument years ago, and then proceeded to spend with reckless abandon.

No one is going to be able to increase taxes on across the board without killing their popularity. The only hope we have is for something like Obama's gambit to increase taxes on some and not others. My personal preference would be for taxes on everyone but the $250k+ to stay the same, while the top brackets go up.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

mlhradio — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:31:47 -0000

One thing that has disappointed me with this campaign is the general meme that Obama will increase taxes, will McCain will not. It's a meme that has been repeated loudly and often by McCain himself as his overall campaign-of-lies tactic (repeat something often enough...). Then again, it's not surprising, either - well before this campaign most people have equated Democrat==raising taxes while Republican==lowering taxes, regardless of what the actual facts are. The truth is much more complicated - both the McCain and Obama economic plans are much more nuanced and complicated than a single-speech-line summary.

I was thinking the other day of a possible political ad that I might create if I had the chance. It would open with a middle-class couple standing in front of their house, saying "We make $53,000 a year - how much more money would I save under Obama's tax plan compared to McCain?" Then it give the numbers, and the camera pans over across the street to another family of four standing in front of a nicer house. "What about us? We make $112,000 a year - how much will Obama save us over McCain?". Then it give the stats, the camera wanders over to a gardener with a rake. "I only make $22,000 a year - how about me?". The ad then ends by saying that any American making under $250,000 will see their taxes go down with Obama, and to go to obamalowerstaxes.com for a quick, simple calculator to find out how much you will save.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

superdestroyer — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:26:48 -0000

chris,

the difference is that McCain will either veto Congresses plans or roll over and go along with them. McCain will not be able to implement any of his own policies. You need to remember that the Democrats control congress and that the control will increase. The better question for McCain is whether he will veto Democratic tax increases or whether he will go along with them.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

ChrisWWW — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:18:13 -0000

I've noticed that all of the unapologetic conservatives on here have nothing to say about John McCain's tax plan, and only bad things to say about what they think Obama might do, even though it runs contrary to Obama's own stated platform. So don't try to tell me McCain won't start a nuclear war with Russia, because that's what I want to believe he'll do if he's elected. It's a genius way to ignore reality.

Anyways. McCain WILL raise taxes. Check out his health care plan.

McCain's plan will increase the national debt, more than Obama's.

McCain's plan will give rich folk, like himself, far more money than it will give to average Joe. And those average Joe's wont get to enjoy that money anyways, since the savings will be wiped out by McCain's own health care plan.

*******

If liberals understood economics, there would be no liberals.

And if conservatives were in charge of the economy... oh wait.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

Elyas — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:13:49 -0000

jwest: So based on your superior understanding of economics, a corporation can continue to pass on costs to consumers without any consequences? If they raise prices, there won't be a drop in consumer demand at some point?

Come on. The "corporations don't pay taxes" argument is a simplistic talking point. Of course they try to pass on all costs, but reality doesn't always make that possible. Sure, they'll cut costs and do what they can to maintain margins... but that doesn't always equate to a price increase. If it does, a competitor will come in and find a way to undercut them.

Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

KJ44 — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:05:22 -0000

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Re: Catapulting the propaganda on taxes

jwest — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:47:36 -0000

elyas,

“Corporations can't pass on taxes to consumers without consequences.”

Where do you think the money comes from? Every nickel of every expense, from suppliers, labor, the government, everything is passed on to the consumer.

If liberals understood economics, there would be no liberals.