The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

Janjanjan — Sat, 09 May 2009 15:39:26 -0000

I was initially against Senator Leahy&#39s Truth Commission concept, but given the current bickering, that may be the right way to go. That would ensure that all responsible for planning, executing, or condoning these acts would be exposed in a public forum. The story line I&#39m seeing from most on the left is that torture is wrong and whoever was complicit must be exposed, while those in senior positions who committed crimes may be prosecuted. The story line I&#39m seeing on the right is that this wasn&#39t really torture, and even if it was, it worked, and that the left is hypocritical in their approach to Democrats who may have been involved. Frankly, I&#39m inclined to believe that the left is being more honest here. I&#39ve seen no progressives who are backing off their positions because Pelosi and others may have been complicit. Some are trying to defend Pelosi, but none of them are saying that her possible involvement changes the underlying issue. The right&#39s position is more about criticizing the left, than it is about maintaining a coherent position. If this truly wasn&#39t torture, or if it was okay because it worked, then it matters not who was involved. Their position re Pelosi should be that she lied, but that it wasn&#39t really torture and anyway, it worked.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

Janjanjan — Sat, 09 May 2009 10:39:26 -0000

I was initially against Senator Leahy's Truth Commission concept, but given the current bickering, that may be the right way to go. That would ensure that all responsible for planning, executing, or condoning these acts would be exposed in a public forum. The story line I'm seeing from most on the left is that torture is wrong and whoever was complicit must be exposed, while those in senior positions who committed crimes may be prosecuted. The story line I'm seeing on the right is that this wasn't really torture, and even if it was, it worked, and that the left is hypocritical in their approach to Democrats who may have been involved. Frankly, I'm inclined to believe that the left is being more honest here. I've seen no progressives who are backing off their positions because Pelosi and others may have been complicit. Some are trying to defend Pelosi, but none of them are saying that her possible involvement changes the underlying issue. The right's position is more about criticizing the left, than it is about maintaining a coherent position. If this truly wasn't torture, or if it was okay because it worked, then it matters not who was involved. Their position re Pelosi should be that she lied, but that it wasn't really torture and anyway, it worked.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

DaGoat — Fri, 08 May 2009 20:48:43 -0000

I know you guys want to spread the guilt across both parties, and maybe that is where guilt will eventually go; but recollections that the CIA itself refuses to validate certainly brings into question the authoritative conclusions everyone here is trying to make.

The most appropriate thing to do would be to have an investigation where the MFRs are available for review and have the committee members decide on their reliability.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

Rudi — Fri, 08 May 2009 18:44:01 -0000

DaGoat nails it. While Pelosi isn&#39t criminally libel, she has much &#39splainin to do...

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

HemmD — Fri, 08 May 2009 17:37:06 -0000

I&#39ve said before that I don&#39t care who gets caught in this, but to be fair, has anyone on the right looked objectively to the infamous report that supposedly nails Pelosi? It is a compiled list of recollections drawn from CIA notes covering 2002 to the present.

Leon Panetta&#39s cover letter for this &#39report&#39 kind of shows the problem:

“This letter presents the most thorough information we have on dates, locations, and names of all Members of Congress who were briefed by the CIA on enhanced interrogation techniques. This information, however, is drawn from the past files of the CIA and represents [memorandums for the record] completed at the time and notes that summarized the best recollections of those individuals. In the end, you and the Committee will have to determine whether this information is an accurate summary of what actually happened. We can make the MFRs available at CIA for staff review.”

I know you guys want to spread the guilt across both parties, and maybe that is where guilt will eventually go; but recollections that the CIA itself refuses to validate certainly brings into question the authoritative conclusions everyone here is trying to make.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

GreenDreams — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:56:55 -0000

"knew about and agreed to this method of interrogation."

To parry back the rather insulting tone of Tony&#39s post "Let me explain" something to my friends on the right. Congress (both parties) were not included in an "advice and consent" context. That is a CRITICAL point, Tony. They were not asked for advice nor to give or withhold consent. This was exclusively an administration decision about which a select group of security cleared legislators were *briefed*. They were forbidden by law to speak to the press or their colleagues about it (look it up, Tony).

I&#39m fine with the case being made to a grand jury on this issue. I guarantee that the limited role of these legislators does not constitute a crime. Indeed, if any of them had spoken out against it publicly, they could have been arrested. That, in this twisted BushCo era, would have been a crime.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

daveinboca — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:51:50 -0000

Of course, practicality has nothing to do with honesty or any integrity whatsoever. Pelosi has repeatedly lied and tried to foster a retroactive indictment of policies that she was in on from the beginning. She is proven an outright liar, a hypocrite, and unworthy of any leadership post in Congress. No wonder she and earmark king Murtha get along so well. They both put Tom DeLay to shame. His duplicity was nowhere near their outright thievery and lying hypocrisy.

She should resign. Steny Hoyer is a Democrat I know from my govt. days in DC and is actually an honest man in a senior position in the House. So is Jane Harman, although Pelosi tried to blacken her name using a CQ mole a few weeks ago. There are honest Democrats and honest Republicans in the House & Senate, just not that many and very few in senior leadership positions.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

ChrisWWW — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:19:16 -0000

Tony,
Let me try to explain something to you.

We&#39ve all known for quite some time that Pelosi and other Democratic leaders in Congress were briefed about the torture regime. We oppose torture on reasons of principle, not partisanship. We want everyone, including complicit Democratic leaders held to account.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

DaGoat — Fri, 08 May 2009 15:51:39 -0000

From a practical standpoint what has Pelosi done that might be a criminal act she could receive immunity for? It sounds like she stood by silently when she heard about the "enhanced interrogation" - I don&#39t see where that&#39s a crime.

The main risk to her would be to her reputation and the possibility of censure or impeachment, something I doubt would happen given the makeup of the House and Senate.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

$199537 — Fri, 08 May 2009 15:48:43 -0000

The most appropriate thing to do would be to have an investigation where the MFRs are available for review and have the committee members decide on their reliability.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

Silhouette — Fri, 08 May 2009 14:28:10 -0000

Punishment of crime is about reform. Obviously there are a lot of people involved with the torture issue from Dick Cheney&#39s office down to the lowliest of military grunts. And everyone inbetween..

I would say that the master of creating fear is guilty of coercion and possibly even blackmail [you&#39ll lose your job, I&#39ll see that you don&#39t get re-elected, the country will fall to terrorism, etc.]. The one way to get at the segments of the tapeworm is to go after the head. See, more bucolic solutions to what otherwise seems like a sticky problem. Grant immunity to all those underlings who fell under the whip of sculpted fear-mongering and rat-out the masterminds. I&#39d be happy with like half- a dozen or so right at the top. Line up the witnesses, including Pelosi et al and strike a deal with them: immunity for testimony. Isn&#39t this how it always is done with gangs? Not every gang member wanted to be in the group. Some joined out of fear and desperation. Give them protection and get those canaries to sing.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

rudi — Fri, 08 May 2009 13:44:01 -0000

DaGoat nails it. While Pelosi isn't criminally libel, she has much 'splainin to do...

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

HemmD — Fri, 08 May 2009 12:37:06 -0000

I've said before that I don't care who gets caught in this, but to be fair, has anyone on the right looked objectively to the infamous report that supposedly nails Pelosi? It is a compiled list of recollections drawn from CIA notes covering 2002 to the present.

Leon Panetta's cover letter for this 'report' kind of shows the problem:

“This letter presents the most thorough information we have on dates, locations, and names of all Members of Congress who were briefed by the CIA on enhanced interrogation techniques. This information, however, is drawn from the past files of the CIA and represents [memorandums for the record] completed at the time and notes that summarized the best recollections of those individuals. In the end, you and the Committee will have to determine whether this information is an accurate summary of what actually happened. We can make the MFRs available at CIA for staff review.”

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

GreenDreams — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:56:55 -0000

"knew about and agreed to this method of interrogation."

To parry back the rather insulting tone of Tony's post "Let me explain" something to my friends on the right. Congress (both parties) were not included in an "advice and consent" context. That is a CRITICAL point, Tony. They were not asked for advice nor to give or withhold consent. This was exclusively an administration decision about which a select group of security cleared legislators were *briefed*. They were forbidden by law to speak to the press or their colleagues about it (look it up, Tony).

I'm fine with the case being made to a grand jury on this issue. I guarantee that the limited role of these legislators does not constitute a crime. Indeed, if any of them had spoken out against it publicly, they could have been arrested. That, in this twisted BushCo era, would have been a crime.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

daveinboca — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:51:50 -0000

She should resign. Steny Hoyer is a Democrat I know from my govt. days in DC and is actually an honest man in a senior position in the House. So is Jane Harman, although Pelosi tried to blacken her name using a CQ mole a few weeks ago. There are honest Democrats and honest Republicans in the House & Senate, just not that many and very few in senior leadership positions.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

ChrisWWW — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:19:16 -0000

Tony,
Let me try to explain something to you.

We've all known for quite some time that Pelosi and other Democratic leaders in Congress were briefed about the torture regime. We oppose torture on reasons of principle, not partisanship. We want everyone, including complicit Democratic leaders held to account.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

$199537 — Fri, 08 May 2009 10:51:39 -0000

The main risk to her would be to her reputation and the possibility of censure or impeachment, something I doubt would happen given the makeup of the House and Senate.

Re: Charge Bush, Pelosi and the rest of Congress

Silhouette — Fri, 08 May 2009 09:28:10 -0000

Punishment of crime is about reform. Obviously there are a lot of people involved with the torture issue from Dick Cheney's office down to the lowliest of military grunts. And everyone inbetween..

I would say that the master of creating fear is guilty of coercion and possibly even blackmail [you'll lose your job, I'll see that you don't get re-elected, the country will fall to terrorism, etc.]. The one way to get at the segments of the tapeworm is to go after the head. See, more bucolic solutions to what otherwise seems like a sticky problem. Grant immunity to all those underlings who fell under the whip of sculpted fear-mongering and rat-out the masterminds. I'd be happy with like half- a dozen or so right at the top. Line up the witnesses, including Pelosi et al and strike a deal with them: immunity for testimony. Isn't this how it always is done with gangs? Not every gang member wanted to be in the group. Some joined out of fear and desperation. Give them protection and get those canaries to sing.

Send a message to future would-be tyrants: "Here's what happens if you consider coercing people to help you subjegate the Constitution, they will turn on you, get off free and YOUR butt will land behind bars". I like the message, how about you?