The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:21:54 -0000

and thank you jdledell, i will be in touch immediately.

dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:21:54 -0000

and thank you jdledell, i will be in touch immediately.

dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:43:01 -0000

glad to hear this jillzie. Better late than never. thanks for saying so.
dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:43:01 -0000

glad to hear this jillzie. Better late than never. thanks for saying so.
dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jillmz — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:24:57 -0000

Thanks dr. e - looks like it finally went up - a rule about first time commenters&#39 comments being held. :)

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jill Miller Zimon — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:24:57 -0000

Thanks dr. e - looks like it finally went up - a rule about first time commenters' comments being held. :)

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 06:55:17 -0000

i hope that&#39s not the case over at the other blog Jillzie, that they would put someone on moderation without telling them and without telling them why. Seems odd to simply, secretly, make a commenter mute.

Regardless. glad youre here with us.

dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jillmz — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 02:04:02 -0000

Jim - I completely understand - I feel exactly the same way - any post anywhere that has that kind of writing in it is usually one I click away from. HOWEVER, for example, on BlogHer? That happens sometimes too but since I know many of the regular contributors there and can recognize their names/handles, I know which ones I&#39m willing to respond to and which ones are just astroturfing.

On the other hand, here&#39s something that&#39s bugging me today: I left a VERY simple comment at this post by Richard Silverstein of a site called Tikun Olam (although I always thought it was spelled Tikkun Olam but that&#39s something else). Anyway - I left this simple comment at 10am or so this morning and it apparently went into moderation. There are a few comments now appearing after mine, none in moderation, and mine is still listed as being in moderation. Now - I have written to the "contact" person but it looks like I&#39ve been moderated out. I hope not. Here&#39s what I&#39d written:

I challenge everyone here to answer one question: do you support a one-state or a two-state solution? Your answer to the question will be closely aligned with what tactics you support in the current conflict.

You can read more about my perspective here:

http://www.blogher.com/gaza-and-israel-reflecti...

Not very inflammatory - except that so far, in five or six days, repeating that question and also "What does Hamas want" over and over? No one, not one person, has even tried to answer me directly.

Why? Because it&#39s so much easier to trot out the atrocities etc. Blue smoke and mirrors. Even a source who I respect though she is very pro-Palestinian has shown herself to be extremely thin in this regard - she repeats over and over, even when I ask her specifically about why didn&#39t Egypt do anything when it was in charge for 20 years, and why didn&#39t Gaza do anything since 2005 etc. - over and over the answer is, because you know, they really were still being occupied for all these 60 years.

Well - okay then - why didn&#39t the Palestinians make a play for a nation all the years before THAT? I mean, come on - I recognize that the Israelis are the worldclass by the bootstraps story that Americans - esp. on the right - love - but even knocking that down a few rungs, we are still left with the fact that the Arab nations have been unable to support one another in any singular way - we can&#39t just keep blaming the Jews for that. I don&#39t think anyway.

Anyway - I understand re: being unable to read some site - I completely empathize.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 01:55:17 -0000

i hope that's not the case over at the other blog Jillzie, that they would put someone on moderation without telling them and without telling them why. Seems odd to simply, secretly, make a commenter mute.

Regardless. glad youre here with us.

dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

jdledell — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:47:32 -0000

Dr. E - I free hand write all my comments so I don&#39t keep copies. I remember writing about in one of your postings about my life with Polio and another one about my children living in Hong Kong (now in Tokyo), Amsterdam and Bangalore) and my life as an itinerent International businessman, Write to me at john.ledell@verizon.net and I will try to recreate whatever you need.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jill Miller Zimon — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:04:02 -0000

On the other hand, here's something that's bugging me today: I left a VERY simple comment at this post by Richard Silverstein of a site called Tikun Olam (although I always thought it was spelled Tikkun Olam but that's something else). Anyway - I left this simple comment at 10am or so this morning and it apparently went into moderation. There are a few comments now appearing after mine, none in moderation, and mine is still listed as being in moderation. Now - I have written to the "contact" person but it looks like I've been moderated out. I hope not. Here's what I'd written:

I challenge everyone here to answer one question: do you support a one-state or a two-state solution? Your answer to the question will be closely aligned with what tactics you support in the current conflict.

You can read more about my perspective here:

http://www.blogher.com/gaza...

Not very inflammatory - except that so far, in five or six days, repeating that question and also "What does Hamas want" over and over? No one, not one person, has even tried to answer me directly.

Why? Because it's so much easier to trot out the atrocities etc. Blue smoke and mirrors. Even a source who I respect though she is very pro-Palestinian has shown herself to be extremely thin in this regard - she repeats over and over, even when I ask her specifically about why didn't Egypt do anything when it was in charge for 20 years, and why didn't Gaza do anything since 2005 etc. - over and over the answer is, because you know, they really were still being occupied for all these 60 years.

Well - okay then - why didn't the Palestinians make a play for a nation all the years before THAT? I mean, come on - I recognize that the Israelis are the worldclass by the bootstraps story that Americans - esp. on the right - love - but even knocking that down a few rungs, we are still left with the fact that the Arab nations have been unable to support one another in any singular way - we can't just keep blaming the Jews for that. I don't think anyway.

Anyway - I understand re: being unable to read some site - I completely empathize.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jim_Satterfield — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:54:03 -0000

I followed some of your links, Jill. I found one commenter on Feministing to represent the kind of poster that just irritates the heck out of me. She writes under the name vhs. She is voluminous. Hundreds of lines condemning Israel, blaming them as the occupiers and the ones with all of the power for everything that happens...and then might write one sentence saying that she really doesn&#39t approve of Hamas firing rockets as though this shows she&#39s really thinking about the issue. It seems that she (Like others who use this strategy.) takes an extremist viewpoint and then when it&#39s pointed out tries to prove she&#39s not extremist with a toss-off sentence or two. Like many who vociferously attack Israel the use of the word occupier is repeated over and over again. But when Hamas and similar factions use that phrase they are referring to the existence of Israel itself. vhs somehow in spite of lots of words being typed never seems to make it clear what version of "End the occupation." she supports. Do you find this often in your reading of places like that. I just couldn&#39t bring myself to create an account over there to try and respond to her because frankly, she strikes me as one of those whose mind is quite made up and responses would be useless.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jim_Satterfield — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:46:45 -0000

jdledell, I think 5 years is nothing because the brutal truth is that peace is decades away if there is really any chance for it at all. Both sides have just too many religious fanatics who don&#39t want peace and have too much influence for their numbers.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

jdledell — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:47:32 -0000

Dr. E - I free hand write all my comments so I don't keep copies. I remember writing about in one of your postings about my life with Polio and another one about my children living in Hong Kong (now in Tokyo), Amsterdam and Bangalore) and my life as an itinerent International businessman, Write to me at john.ledell@verizon.net and I will try to recreate whatever you need.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jillmz — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 15:15:35 -0000

Glad you are beseeaching him/her. Thank you! I look forward to reading more.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jim_Satterfield — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 14:54:03 -0000

I followed some of your links, Jill. I found one commenter on Feministing to represent the kind of poster that just irritates the heck out of me. She writes under the name vhs. She is voluminous. Hundreds of lines condemning Israel, blaming them as the occupiers and the ones with all of the power for everything that happens...and then might write one sentence saying that she really doesn't approve of Hamas firing rockets as though this shows she's really thinking about the issue. It seems that she (Like others who use this strategy.) takes an extremist viewpoint and then when it's pointed out tries to prove she's not extremist with a toss-off sentence or two. Like many who vociferously attack Israel the use of the word occupier is repeated over and over again. But when Hamas and similar factions use that phrase they are referring to the existence of Israel itself. vhs somehow in spite of lots of words being typed never seems to make it clear what version of "End the occupation." she supports. Do you find this often in your reading of places like that. I just couldn't bring myself to create an account over there to try and respond to her because frankly, she strikes me as one of those whose mind is quite made up and responses would be useless.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jim_Satterfield — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 14:46:45 -0000

jdledell, I think 5 years is nothing because the brutal truth is that peace is decades away if there is really any chance for it at all. Both sides have just too many religious fanatics who don't want peace and have too much influence for their numbers.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:38:41 -0000

Jdledell!! Welcome back. I was just speaking about you here on TMV the other day in a comment, remarking on your broadly diverse Jewish family. I hope this is alright with you Jillzie, but I wanted to ask Jkledell a question that&#39s off topic for just a moment...

JKLEDELL, if you think you can find your long comment here at TMV, it was probably over a year ago, posssibly even longer ago... wherein you spoke about your family and all their different locales and points of view (it was in response not just to an article at TMV, but to another commenter who had, I believe, taken things too simplistically.... I would so like to refer accurately to your comment as part of an article.

If you can find it, would you send it to Joe Gandelman and he will find me wherever I am and forward it? Please keep commenting. You have a lot to say of value from, like Jillmz, eye witness in certain regards. That human and humane witness of individuals is so missing in all these matters. Like our own MSM and their incessant use of the word, "troops" instead of people by name, flesh and blood people... The personal often carries such power to pierce that the flat and dull tropes do not.

Blessed new year to you and yours,
dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jill Miller Zimon — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 10:15:35 -0000

Glad you are beseeaching him/her. Thank you! I look forward to reading more.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 06:38:41 -0000

JDLEDELL, if you think you can find your long comment here at TMV, it was probably over a year ago, posssibly even longer ago... wherein you spoke about your family and all their different locales and points of view (it was in response not just to an article at TMV, but to another commenter who had, I believe, taken things too simplistically.... I would so like to refer accurately to your comment as part of an article.

If you can find it, would you send it to Joe Gandelman and he will find me wherever I am and forward it? Please keep commenting. You have a lot to say of value from, like Jillmz, eye witness in certain regards. That human and humane witness of individuals is so missing in all these matters. Like our own MSM and their incessant use of the word, "troops" instead of people by name, flesh and blood people... The personal often carries such power to pierce that the flat and dull tropes do not.

Blessed new year to you and yours,
dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jillmz — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 02:18:23 -0000

I&#39ve never been a supporter of the settlements, ever. And this summer, the tour owner who was also my group&#39s guide (trip w/my congregation) is an American who made aliyah in the 1970s and lives in Efrat, which is a settlement in the W. Bank which suppposedly is part of some deal that includes Efrat never being given back - I don&#39t know more than what he told us.

My problem with the settlements is the same as my problem w/the rockets hailing from Gaza - they&#39re provocation. And anyone who is serious about peace would not engage in either one.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

jdledell — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:39:38 -0000

This makes me incredibly sad because it sets back the chance for a peace agreement by at least 5 years. Meanwhile all my settler relatives and their friends and supporters will be expanding ourposts and settlements with the goal of making a viable Palestinian state impossible. I spent November in the West Bank and I even got my IDF nephew to take me to Maskiot in the Jordan Valley (it&#39s a closed military zone so I needed him to get there). Those settlers are transplants from Gaza and have been assured by the Israeli government that they will not have to move again. Everywhere you look there are new empty houses waiting for new families in just about every settlement.

I have no idea what Israel&#39s game plan is but eventually moving most of the settlers doesn&#39t seem to be part of it. I listed to a talk Zeev Boim (Cabinet Minister) give in Ma&#39ale Adumim where he assured the people that during the Annapolis negotiations that Israel would have 25 years to remove the settlements and any negative action resets the clock. In addition Israel would continue to control all the water resources of the West Bank as well as the border with Jordan. Jerusalem would stay in Jewish hands except a "guaranteed" walkway to the Muslims Dome of the Rock. If this is true, Israel will never have peace.

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jillmz — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:15:03 -0000

I know - I&#39m a criminal.

Speaking of resources, here&#39s another very good round-up from across the spectrum, MSM and blogs: http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/2009/01/gaz...

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

archangel — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:00:26 -0000

great list of resources at end of article Jillzie. And in grim jest, gracious what on earth is wrong with you, having more than one point of insight and consideration about this issue like an actual thinking person? What is the world coming to? A thinking Peace?

dr.e

Re: Gaza and Israel: Reflections and Resoures

Jill Miller Zimon — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 21:18:23 -0000

I've never been a supporter of the settlements, ever. And this summer, the tour owner who was also my group's guide (trip w/my congregation) is an American who made aliyah in the 1970s and lives in Efrat, which is a settlement in the W. Bank which suppposedly is part of some deal that includes Efrat never being given back - I don't know more than what he told us.

My problem with the settlements is the same as my problem w/the rockets hailing from Gaza - they're provocation. And anyone who is serious about peace would not engage in either one.