I have to say I was ambivalent about posting it. I came across it as I was working on the Thio Li-ann posts. I finally posted thinking it was better to be seen than ignored. I'm not sure why. Awareness, I guess. I couldn't believe it was real. I still wish someone could point out to me that I was snookered. The lyrics are here (not a Westboro site). They were so proud of them they subtitled the video.
kathykattenburg
· 5 months ago
Oh my god. Joe, I don't know what to say. That last shot is so horrifying.
I think I feel... sorry for these people. I can't feel any anger. I just feel such sorrow for them.
ordinarysparrow
· 5 months ago
Joe. . .
for the last year of reading most every post on TMV. . .i have been informed, educated, agreeded, disagreed, laughed, gotten angry, and held dear. . .but have never broken down and cried. . .i did today with this video. . .so sad that i cannot even find mad. . .
many of them so young, hatred is not who they are but something that is being programmed into them. . .
Sacred Heart of God be with them. . .
D. E.Rodriguez
· 5 months ago
So sad...
pacatrue
· 5 months ago
I haven't watched the video, because I generally ignore Westboro as much as possible. However, based upon the comments, are there any principles about children and hate groups such as neo-nazis and the like? Anyone know?
kathykattenburg
· 5 months ago
.so sad that i cannot even find mad.
Yes, yes, exactly. That's what I meant, too.
ordinarysparrow
· 5 months ago
This is one i am hoping Dr. E. will comment on. . . like Pacature questioned??? do we have hate speak laws that would protect children in these kind of situations?. . .
archangel
· 5 months ago
In answer to sparrow, and thank you for asking. Just my two cents worth. From my brush with law school, this is what I know, which is certainly not everything about criminal and family law.... truly that's a lifetime study
we do not have laws that take children from parents/ family because of the nature of philosophic or religious or quasi-religions beliefs parents teach the children's hearts minds and spirits. No matter how vile to others.
There are laws on the books that are very often clear: about imprisoning a child, starving a child, neglecting a child's physical needs, not allowing the child to have schooling, sexually intruding on a child, leaving children unsupervised, physically abusing children, leading children into lives of crime or as accessories to crimes, endangering the physical safety of a child with drugs, alcohol, forcing them to drink poisons, forcing the child knowingly or unknowingly to carry or deliver illegal substances, using children to deliver incendiary devices or encouraging them to set fires to destroy property, abandonment of a young child on the street... etc and so on. All these and more the law concerns itself with. And all these kinds of charges are definitely actionable by the DAs and the courts.
As you can see, most all the law sits with matters affecting physical safety/ physical harm/ physical intrusion/ and death to the physical body of a child.
There is an area that is sometimes gray, and that is with regard to withholding what the law might hold as 'reasonable' medical intervention during a child's illness, in particular an illness deemed terminal unless treatments are given. The place where law and religion have clashed more and more in the last many years is between spiritual belief in healing without medical intervention, and the people's concern with the health and safety of underage children. There are mixed outcomes in court decisions in this area.
Shaming, humiliating, verbally demeaning a child mercilessly, spanking in some cases even leaving bruises on the behind, teaching a child hatred of any group or class of people, leading children into political protests, brainwashing a child to believe they are nothing, harassing, haranguing, isolating, punishing, enslaving psychologically, forbidding the child to have friendships, cutting the child off from healthy social ties, forcing the child to wear certain clothes and have no sovereignty over the most simple aspects of their own lives such as how to wear their hair, or whether they are allowed to sleep without being wakened unessecarily or other abusive behavior on the parts of parents, etc..... these are not specifically addressed by law, unless the first group of harms to physical body of child are present also.
Suffer the little children, said by the Teacher, meaning that the adult men ought put up with the children's joy and happiness to be near love, even though their clamoring irritates or disturbs the contemplations of some of the adults... IOW: Suffer your irritations all adults... and let the children be children.
The sadness I think many carry is remembering there are many little souls who are like the child at the end of this video, and we believe this is no way to 'love' a child. No way in any way at all.
I have not watched this particular video above, and wont... have had enough of Sardonicus Fred Phelps and gang who were here atop us at the Columbine High School massacre memorial mervice for those murdered, and also here at Cheyenne for Mathew Shepard's funeral.
I earlier wrote two articles about Freddie at TMV, one about the patriot motorcycle guys who are good-guy Vets who have ridden to form a protective wall against fred and family during their sacrilegious appearances at Veteran's funerals,
and another article about how someone finally won a multi-million dollar law suit against fred's 'church." (freddie and his daughter are both lawyers who have dozens of lawsuits against any village or hamlet that tries to limit their abominations)
However, when I saw that freddie posts all blog and newspaper posts about himself on his westboro site, and brags about what wonderful publicity other people's condemnations are for himself and his crew, I stopped writing about him. And wont.
But, I will write about those who out-trick him and neutralize his fangs. The old people used to say the way to chase the Devil is not to point to all his evil, but to all his failures.
In the old stories, Creator sends angels into hell to free the good souls wrongfully stolen by los demonios. It is just my two cents worth, but I think we can pray that the children of fred's family will someday meet people who take their breath away with being examples of true love of humanity... people filled, perhaps with imitatio Cristi .
I'll hold that thought.
dr.e
pacatrue
· 5 months ago
Thanks so much, dr. e.
Dr J
· 5 months ago
A refreshing gust of honesty from the Christian right. (At least purportedly from the Christian right; it's so bald it's hard to believe.) There really is no other way to reconcile God's omnipotence with all the suffering and misery in the world.
And as for the girl at the end, um, hello? Religions consider indoctrinating kids with hogwash like this not just okay but a sacrament. Nothing new here, other than that someone's captured it on video with a poster child who's so adorable it's a little suspicious.
ordinarysparrow
· 5 months ago
I sure don't want to flare up a theological discussion here, i know that rarely goes anywhere positive. . .but would like to state i have found a way to reconcile God's omnipotence with all the suffering and misery in the world. . .
man is given free will. . when we an act and resonate with the lower self that is based in blame, judgment, retaliation, me, and mine we are more apt to bring density into the world or we can surrender and align with the higher source that resonates with, goodwill, harmony, peace, love, "less of me and more of Thee". . .the suffering and misery in the world is due to to our choice to align with the lower nature of man . . .thus we bring forth that which is dense and ungodly into our world . .not God. . .
most every religious tradition, i know of states that God is love. . .and to say May God's Will Be Done. . .is the same as saying May Love Prevail for that is the truth of God. . .
i am not saying anyone else needs to view it this way, this is just a statement to suggest there are ways of understanding suffering and misery in the world without putting the rap on the God . .
whether we share some differences or similarities on this subject much honor to you Dr. J and whatever beliefs that resonate with your faith and being. . .
Ryan
· 5 months ago
Yes, sparrow, most traditions state that God is love, and they're perfectly happy to kill each other over whose God is more loving. The more intense the beliefs, the more unhinged the adherents are. (Now extrapolate that backwards.)
ordinarysparrow
· 5 months ago
Thanks Dr. E.. . .i remember M Scott Peck stating in People of the Lie that often times one of the ways we can know we are in the presence of evil, is that is will leave an experience of nausea. . .
this bring nausea, and will hold that little girl and the other young people in prayer into the wee hours. . .
"If we penetrate deeply into all aspects and all areas of life, we will find that hidden behind everything is love. We will discover that love is the force, the power and inspiration behind every word and every action. This applies to all people, irrespective of race, caste, creed, sect, religion or of what work people do."
What a strange twisted love this man holds. . .a love like this must make everyone look a little deeper into the mirror of religious intolerance . .shiver. . . .
thanks Dr. E.. . .
EEllis
· 5 months ago
I guess I had a little different take on this crap. I found it funny. It's absurd, ludicrous and that these people take it serious is beyond words. Yes it is hateful and disgusting but so far beyond reality they might as well be preaching about aliens as anything recognized by any real church. It's like Monty Python does crazy religious zealot.
Father_Time
· 5 months ago
Yep, and, I WANT to be free from these lunatics if you don’t mind.
I don’t want them in my restaurant, (if I had one), I don’t want them in my apartment building, (if I owned one), I don’t want them picketing my work place, place or worship, schools, funerals, etc.. In general, I do not want to hear their crap, their conversion sales pitch, their condemnations upon me, my friends and family for NOT wanting to listen to their crap.
In essence, I want freedom FROM religion.
JSpencer
· 5 months ago
I agree, this is mostly just pathetic, but it's also cause for more serious concern. I believe there can be, in some cases, a rather thin line between religious faith and mental illness. The folks in the video have either crossed that line, or are so incapable of forming rational judgements they have the potential for transforming delusions about what some god wants into a more dangerous manifestations... the obvious one of course being the filling of innocent minds with hateful nonsense. It's sad... in a particularly unpleasant way, and I think it's a also a commentary on a small segment of our American culture that shames us.
Lynx
· 5 months ago
For everyone depressed about the stomach turning Christian Cult and heartbroken about the little girl at the end, a cheering up. Here is Freddie-boys church being greeted by the Alpha Delta Phi fraternity in Chicago. Not a frat known for it's liberal values, in the least, but they sure know how to say hi!
I believe there can be, in some cases, a rather thin line between religious faith and mental illness.
I think you've hit on something, jspencer. Maybe *that* is why I feel sorry for them rather than angry -- because this all strikes me as psychological rather than legitimately political or religious. You can't be angry at behavior that you either know or strongly suspect is caused by mental illness. And I want to add, because people so often use the term "mental illness" as just another way to insult people, that I don't intend it to mean that. I really think there's some kind of group psychosis here. This is, after all, essentially one large family. Literally, I mean. All these people are either biologically related or have known each other all their lives.
ordinarysparrow
· 5 months ago
went back and watched the last minute with the little girl and watched her little body language. . .the last frame seems so revealing. .. and shows a wisdom so much greater than her grandpa and older extended family. . .this little girl still got soul. . .notice how she make the expression like a little child that has pooped her pants and knows a "stinky" has been let out. . . the last seconds of her body language speaks volumes about hate. . .many think that anger or rage is under hate, i would say the underbelly of hate is toxic shame. . .and that is the reason Fred Phelps hate continuously shames in all the actions they undertake. . . truly his shaming of all the different groups and the world is a projection of his own souls shame resulting from his hate. . . how sad. . . may the spirit of her auntie that left the tribe be her guide. . .
and just in case Fred posts the article responses from TMV on his website. . .would like to express something to the young people. . .the group of you are good looking beautiful young people. . . the time will come when you will be making decisions for yourself as how you will live your life based on what you believe. . .please know that if your soul is strong enough to walk out from this degree of density, and darkness there will be real love and angels of light waiting to guide you. this i trust. . .and if you can allow your true self and soul to emerge through the fires of this kind programming of hatred. . .you will have so much to offer this world. . .the world and truth waits to give a loving embrace for each of you. . . there is goodness in the world along with all that we in our ignorance have created. . .it is a and both world. . .
All Comments
I think I feel... sorry for these people. I can't feel any anger. I just feel such sorrow for them.
for the last year of reading most every post on TMV. . .i have been informed, educated, agreeded, disagreed, laughed, gotten angry, and held dear. . .but have never broken down and cried. . .i did today with this video. . .so sad that i cannot even find mad. . .
many of them so young, hatred is not who they are but something that is being programmed into them. . .
Sacred Heart of God be with them. . .
Yes, yes, exactly. That's what I meant, too.
we do not have laws that take children from parents/ family because of the nature of philosophic or religious or quasi-religions beliefs parents teach the children's hearts minds and spirits. No matter how vile to others.
There are laws on the books that are very often clear: about imprisoning a child, starving a child, neglecting a child's physical needs, not allowing the child to have schooling, sexually intruding on a child, leaving children unsupervised, physically abusing children, leading children into lives of crime or as accessories to crimes, endangering the physical safety of a child with drugs, alcohol, forcing them to drink poisons, forcing the child knowingly or unknowingly to carry or deliver illegal substances, using children to deliver incendiary devices or encouraging them to set fires to destroy property, abandonment of a young child on the street... etc and so on. All these and more the law concerns itself with. And all these kinds of charges are definitely actionable by the DAs and the courts.
As you can see, most all the law sits with matters affecting physical safety/ physical harm/ physical intrusion/ and death to the physical body of a child.
There is an area that is sometimes gray, and that is with regard to withholding what the law might hold as 'reasonable' medical intervention during a child's illness, in particular an illness deemed terminal unless treatments are given. The place where law and religion have clashed more and more in the last many years is between spiritual belief in healing without medical intervention, and the people's concern with the health and safety of underage children. There are mixed outcomes in court decisions in this area.
Shaming, humiliating, verbally demeaning a child mercilessly, spanking in some cases even leaving bruises on the behind, teaching a child hatred of any group or class of people, leading children into political protests, brainwashing a child to believe they are nothing, harassing, haranguing, isolating, punishing, enslaving psychologically, forbidding the child to have friendships, cutting the child off from healthy social ties, forcing the child to wear certain clothes and have no sovereignty over the most simple aspects of their own lives such as how to wear their hair, or whether they are allowed to sleep without being wakened unessecarily or other abusive behavior on the parts of parents, etc..... these are not specifically addressed by law, unless the first group of harms to physical body of child are present also.
Suffer the little children, said by the Teacher, meaning that the adult men ought put up with the children's joy and happiness to be near love, even though their clamoring irritates or disturbs the contemplations of some of the adults... IOW: Suffer your irritations all adults... and let the children be children.
The sadness I think many carry is remembering there are many little souls who are like the child at the end of this video, and we believe this is no way to 'love' a child. No way in any way at all.
I have not watched this particular video above, and wont... have had enough of Sardonicus Fred Phelps and gang who were here atop us at the Columbine High School massacre memorial mervice for those murdered, and also here at Cheyenne for Mathew Shepard's funeral.
I earlier wrote two articles about Freddie at TMV, one about the patriot motorcycle guys who are good-guy Vets who have ridden to form a protective wall against fred and family during their sacrilegious appearances at Veteran's funerals,
and another article about how someone finally won a multi-million dollar law suit against fred's 'church." (freddie and his daughter are both lawyers who have dozens of lawsuits against any village or hamlet that tries to limit their abominations)
However, when I saw that freddie posts all blog and newspaper posts about himself on his westboro site, and brags about what wonderful publicity other people's condemnations are for himself and his crew, I stopped writing about him. And wont.
But, I will write about those who out-trick him and neutralize his fangs. The old people used to say the way to chase the Devil is not to point to all his evil, but to all his failures.
In the old stories, Creator sends angels into hell to free the good souls wrongfully stolen by los demonios. It is just my two cents worth, but I think we can pray that the children of fred's family will someday meet people who take their breath away with being examples of true love of humanity... people filled, perhaps with imitatio Cristi .
I'll hold that thought.
dr.e
And as for the girl at the end, um, hello? Religions consider indoctrinating kids with hogwash like this not just okay but a sacrament. Nothing new here, other than that someone's captured it on video with a poster child who's so adorable it's a little suspicious.
man is given free will. . when we an act and resonate with the lower self that is based in blame, judgment, retaliation, me, and mine we are more apt to bring density into the world or we can surrender and align with the higher source that resonates with, goodwill, harmony, peace, love, "less of me and more of Thee". . .the suffering and misery in the world is due to to our choice to align with the lower nature of man . . .thus we bring forth that which is dense and ungodly into our world . .not God. . .
most every religious tradition, i know of states that God is love. . .and to say May God's Will Be Done. . .is the same as saying May Love Prevail for that is the truth of God. . .
i am not saying anyone else needs to view it this way, this is just a statement to suggest there are ways of understanding suffering and misery in the world without putting the rap on the God . .
whether we share some differences or similarities on this subject much honor to you Dr. J and whatever beliefs that resonate with your faith and being. . .
this bring nausea, and will hold that little girl and the other young people in prayer into the wee hours. . .
"If we penetrate deeply into all aspects and all areas of life, we will find that hidden behind everything is love. We will discover that love is the force, the power and inspiration behind every word and every action. This applies to all people, irrespective of race, caste, creed, sect, religion or of what work people do."
What a strange twisted love this man holds. . .a love like this must make everyone look a little deeper into the mirror of religious intolerance . .shiver. . . .
thanks Dr. E.. . .
I don’t want them in my restaurant, (if I had one), I don’t want them in my apartment building, (if I owned one), I don’t want them picketing my work place, place or worship, schools, funerals, etc.. In general, I do not want to hear their crap, their conversion sales pitch, their condemnations upon me, my friends and family for NOT wanting to listen to their crap.
In essence, I want freedom FROM religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZfZiBRFM5w
I think you've hit on something, jspencer. Maybe *that* is why I feel sorry for them rather than angry -- because this all strikes me as psychological rather than legitimately political or religious. You can't be angry at behavior that you either know or strongly suspect is caused by mental illness. And I want to add, because people so often use the term "mental illness" as just another way to insult people, that I don't intend it to mean that. I really think there's some kind of group psychosis here. This is, after all, essentially one large family. Literally, I mean. All these people are either biologically related or have known each other all their lives.
and just in case Fred posts the article responses from TMV on his website. . .would like to express something to the young people. . .the group of you are good looking beautiful young people. . . the time will come when you will be making decisions for yourself as how you will live your life based on what you believe. . .please know that if your soul is strong enough to walk out from this degree of density, and darkness there will be real love and angels of light waiting to guide you. this i trust. . .and if you can allow your true self and soul to emerge through the fires of this kind programming of hatred. . .you will have so much to offer this world. . .the world and truth waits to give a loving embrace for each of you. . . there is goodness in the world along with all that we in our ignorance have created. . .it is a and both world. . .