The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

pacatrue — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:10:15 -0000

It's worth remembering that both Clinton and Obama threatened to opt out of NAFTA unless there was renegotiation in the debate. Obama mostly just agreed with her; however, he's being remembered with this issue because someone may or may not have said the threat wasn't that serious to the Canadian ambassador, while Clinton's camp either actually wishes to opt out or doesn't mean it, but no one spilled the beans.

This fabled communication could have been almost anything. If Obama directly called the ambassador and said he didn't mean what he said to Ohioans, that's one thing. If some economic advisor decided on her or his own to call Canada and said something like, "we don't want to opt out of NAFTA but we can't completely rule it out if circumstances in the future warrant it, but you know how campaigns are, haha," that's a rather different circumstance.

This is the way politics used to operate of course. A poltitician went from audience to audience telling them what they wanted to hear. With the internet, you almost can't do it anymore because the video will show up on YouTube eventually, for example Mayor Nagin's "chocolate city" line or Allen's "macaca".

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

kathyedits — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:36:49 -0000

CasualObserver wrote: "And Kathy, can you provide the link to where you provided your taker on the NYT article suggesting McCain had an affair with the lobbyist?:"

I don't think you're referring to something I wrote, C.O. I'm familiar with the news story you're talking about, but -- unless I'm having a more severe senior moment than usual -- I never blogged about it. :-)

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

casualobserver — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:52:17 -0000

and since he dove into the minefield, he is more qualfied to find a way out. What's more, I'm sure he can do it better, i.e. while preserving a patina of calm reason
Let's hear him speak,

I'm with you there.......and if you watch the youtube clip of him responding to the press on the plane, he only comments that the Canadian embassy has denied the conversation. Call me a Republican troublemaker, but why wouldn't he choose to respond from the perspective of his own organization, instead of only repeating something external and already known?

Further, what's ironic justice here is that if we are to assume both D's only want to tweak environmental and labor standards of NAFTA, the Canadians are hardly the ones to pick on anyway.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

domajot — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:08:48 -0000

Well, someone may have talked to someone, or not.
That's the basic story line for this entire election season. Allegations, denials and having to choose who is telling the truth.

Regardless of who is phoning whom, Obama opened a can of worms by speaking so strongly about NAFTA, although 'renegotiate' is actually vague enough to give cover to a wide variety of outcomes.

The press and the blogosphere just make it worse, by hyping their own interpretations and protestasations. In this, I fault his supporters as much as his detractors.
Obama is an intelligent man, and since he dove into the minefield, he is more qualfied to find a way out. What's more, I'm sure he can do it better, i.e. while preserving a patina of calm reason
Let's hear him speak, and by now it's imperative that he explain exactly what his position on NAFTA and other trade deals is.
"Renegotiate' is not suffiicient. This is a subject both Obama and Clinton should address in more detail, lots of details.

Oh, I forgot, this is election season. Back to soundbites.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

MaryL — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:47:05 -0000

Macan, I read the Toronto and national papers and listen to talk radio like CFRB. Is this being discussed, yes, but it's nowhere near the level of passion people are displaying over the Chuck Cadman bribery scandal, or the George Smitherman adult diapers story.

I think we're in wait and see mode up here.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

Macan — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:31:43 -0000

MaryL...being from Quebec, you probably remember Prime Minister Mulroney...who I see is also in the newspapers the past couple of days.

His reputation was destroyed by free trade/NAFTA, and his closeness to Reagan and the Bushes. I gather he is probably as radioactive in Canada as "W" is in the US.

I doubt the current Prime Minister wants to go down in flames as well.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

Macan — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:27:50 -0000

Hardly "calm business as usual"!

I am writing from Toronto, Canada, at the moment...and people up here are PISSED!

This story has dominated the newspapers for the past couple of days. The current conservative government really does not want to re-open NAFTA.

It was a brutal national debate getting it approved in Canada - in the 1988 election, and later with NAFTA - on a scale of the US debate over Iraq. I had friends who were deeply involved in this, and a national election ended up being called on only one issue: free trade. FYI: Canadian politics is defined by anxiety about the American empire...and American lusts for Canadian oil, water and actors.

The NDP were opposed to free trade, and lost. Not surprising, they welcome Obama re-opening it...as it would effectively send Canadian politics into another crazed spiral that could only benefit them as the smallest party in the country.

So this story makes perfect sense, really. The government doesn't want to upset the Dem's...and so are officially denying it. But they are leaking to CTV as a warning...and backing this up with public warnings about shutting off Canadian oil to the US.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

MaryL — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:14:27 -0000

Damn. I didn't set off the CTV quote properly. It starts at the second paragraph ("Sources at ...") and ends at "But Harper noted ...".

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

MaryL — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:01:47 -0000

casualobserver, my English is just fine, thank you. (And my French ain't shabby either, given I was born and raised in Québec). Here's the entire quote from the most recent CTV story, not just the bit you pulled out without a link:

"Sources at the highest levels of the Canadian government -- who first told CTV that a call was made from the Obama camp -- have reconfirmed their position.

NDP Leader Jack Layton said in question period Thursday that Canada should take advantage of any openings to renegotiate NAFTA.

"Why won't the prime minister take the lead here, exercise some sovereignty and bring about some change here that would be good for workers?" he asked.

However, Harper had a warning to anyone contemplating renegotiation of the trade deal.

"If a future president actually did want to open up NAFTA, which I highly doubt, then Canada would obviously have some things we would want to discuss," Harper said.

But Harper also noted that assertions made in the heat of political campaigns should be taken with a grain of salt. During the federal election in 1993, former prime minister Jean Chretien threatened to back out of NAFTA's precursor -- the Free Trade Agreement, which was signed by the Tories in the 1980s. "

That sentence you quoted referred to the FIRST wave of the story -- re some UNNAMED senior source -- and then talked about the NDP and the Tories confirming their positions re NAFTA, not their positions re the original CBC claims.

* The NDP thinks it's hunky-dory that we renegotiate.
* The Tories think that renegotiations are a double edged sword and that Canada may be looking to improve some elements related to our interests.
* And Harper isn't that worried about any candidate's stance on NAFTA, and thinks that things could change once Obama or anyone else gets into office.

This is hardly a case of senior Canadian officials confirming the original story. Just pretty calm business as usual up here.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

GreenDreams — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:42:46 -0000

I hear that Joe Gandelman in a phone call to the Daily Kos office said that everything on this site is a spoof. Never mind that Joe denies it and so does Daily Kos. It'll be all over the blogosphere soon. This is news. Why should we believe the dismissals of both people supposedly involved in the communication? Amazing.

You mean they really can't find anything Obama has prevaricated on and have to make something up? Wow.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

casualobserver — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:01:36 -0000

I readily accept that without specific facts, i.e., naming parties of the call, the time of the call and salient quotes from the call, nothing is proven.

But, MaryL, if this your idea of backing down by CTV, then we don't comprehend the English language the same way........."Sources at the highest levels of the Canadian government -- who first told CTV that a call was made from the Obama camp -- have reconfirmed their position."

And Kathy, can you provide the link to where you provided your taker on the NYT article suggesting McCain had an affair with the lobbyist?

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

MaryL — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:22:38 -0000

Good piece! And CTV is backing down now.

Re: Guest Voice: Obama, NAFTA, Canada And The Blogosphere

rudi — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:37:51 -0000

I think this is the first link to Larry Johnson. I used to skim over to his sight, but his rabid support of Billary ended my visits to that site. The sites bias is evident by the Billary ads in the sidebar. Like Marsh, they(LJ) cherry pick all that is bad for Obamama, even though they criticized W for his love of cherries.