The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:56:28 -0000

What I don&#39t understand is why the Honduran Supreme Court issueing a finding that Zelaya violated the constitution is, in your opinion, not a valid legal process.

For the same reason it would not be a legal process if the U.S. Supreme Court "issued a finding" that Pres. Bush violated the U.S. Constitution by torturing people and spying on Americans without probable cause or a search warrant.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:56:28 -0000

What I don't understand is why the Honduran Supreme Court issueing a finding that Zelaya violated the constitution is, in your opinion, not a valid legal process.

For the same reason it would not be a legal process if the U.S. Supreme Court "issued a finding" that Pres. Bush violated the U.S. Constitution by torturing people and spying on Americans without probable cause or a search warrant.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

DaGoat — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:02:24 -0000

The situation is obviously ambiguous with little precedent, not surprising in a constitution only 29 years old.

I think you hit the nail on the head. For the past day I&#39ve been asking to see the portion of the Honduran Constitution pertaining to impeachment, now tonight it looks like there ISN&#39T a relevant portion of the constitution. It is not clear what the law is in this instance, so all the clamoring for the rule of law to be followed is kind of futile.

What IS pretty clear is what the Honduran Congress and Supreme Court thought the rule of law was in their own country. To me they are in the best position to make that judgment.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:36:31 -0000

Is it just me? There are different "proceedings" for different things. Kathy seems to think there should be a criminal trial(closest I can think of to her description) when even in the US the "legal proceedings" to impeach are different. It seems to me if you are demanding the proper "proceedings" must occur the asking for the exact and precise "proceedings" you want is a valid and important question as well as the legal basis for those proceedings of course. The situation is obviously ambiguous with little precedent, not surprising in a constitution only 29 years old. It appears that the Legislature is the body that would impeach officials but that there may not be a need to impeach because of the violation of the constitution not requiring such impeachment in the specific case of attempting to change term limits. If that is so it seems possible that a finding of the supreme court may be ground for removal of the Pres. That some feel that there should be more of a "Process" does not make automatically less valid or legal. In addition the fact that laws were broken (the exile of Zelaya, his not being present during the impeachment vote if that is what it was) would not automaticly make the process invalid. In the US evidence seized during a illegal search is excluded from trial. in the UK the evidence would be included but the officer who sized the evidence could face action. The courts could say that the "proceedings" should of been different but with a 120 and some to 3 vote it would of had no possible change in outcome so is valid. That decision would mirror legal decisions in this country as well as others.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:14:56 -0000

I understand what a legal proceeding is. What I don&#39t understand is why the Honduran Supreme Court issueing a finding that Zelaya violated the constitution is, in your opinion, not a valid legal process.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

DaGoat — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:10:32 -0000

Yes, what are those proceedings.

You must have asked a good question EEllis since Kathy has unleashed the legendary "you are so ignorant there&#39s no possible way I can explain this to you" defense. Few have felt it&#39s wrath and lived to tell the tale.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:04:57 -0000

Yes, what are those proceedings.
What is their legal process not one you have made up to satisfy your standards?

Ellis, I am not adequate to the task of teaching you about the last 800 years of legal and political history that you obviously don&#39t know.

Seriously. I don&#39t know what else I can say. I explained what I meant by legal proceedings and you obviously don&#39t understand what I wrote because you asked the question again.

Truly, Ellis, there is nothing more I can say to explain to you what legal proceedings are. I&#39m sorry.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

$199537 — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:02:24 -0000

The situation is obviously ambiguous with little precedent, not surprising in a constitution only 29 years old.

I think you hit the nail on the head. For the past day I've been asking to see the portion of the Honduran Constitution pertaining to impeachment, now tonight it looks like there ISN'T a relevant portion of the constitution. It is not clear what the law is in this instance, so all the clamoring for the rule of law to be followed is kind of futile.

What IS pretty clear is what the Honduran Congress and Supreme Court thought the rule of law was in their own country. To me they are in the best position to make that judgment.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:42:39 -0000

What is their legal process not one you have made up to satisfy your standards?

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:36:31 -0000

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:35:43 -0000

Kathy said"After PROVING, via the use of legally prescribed proceedings, that those conditions have been met.

Can I make it any clearer?"

Yes, what are those proceedings.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:14:56 -0000

I understand what a legal proceeding is. What I don't understand is why the Honduran Supreme Court issueing a finding that Zelaya violated the constitution is, in your opinion, not a valid legal process.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

$199537 — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:10:32 -0000

Yes, what are those proceedings.

You must have asked a good question EEllis since Kathy has unleashed the legendary "you are so ignorant there's no possible way I can explain this to you" defense. Few have felt it's wrath and lived to tell the tale.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:01:25 -0000

The Honduran government has the right to remove their president under certain conditions, just as the US does.

After PROVING, via the use of legally prescribed proceedings, that those conditions have been met.

Can I make it any clearer?

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:59:16 -0000

The Supreme Court followed the law and ordered the immediate removal of Zelaya, when he refused to listen to the warnings. They upheld th law as written in Article 239 of their Constitution.

But they did not follow any legal process for PROVING that Zelaya had committed the constitutional violations they say he committed.

It does not get any clearer than this, folks.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:57:02 -0000

What is the "legally prescribed process" in Honduras for doing so?

Usually, a legally prescribed process ("a" is the word I used, not "the," which actually makes a meaningful difference to what I wrote) involves arrest and/or formal notification of charges filed against one; after which there is a trial or some kind of court proceeding in which both sides are represented by attorneys, evidence is presented, and the defendent is given an opportunity to confront witnesses, present evidence, etc.; after which there is a verdict, either by jury or by a judge or panel of judges; and, if the verdict is guilty, a sentencing. A legally prescribed process includes guidelines for sentencing, so that the court cannot simply impose any sentence it wishes -- and I am not aware of any legal, democratic process in the world by which a government official who was fairly and legitimately elected to office can be summarily removed from office, at gunpoint, with none of the legal proceedings I just enumerated, and exiled from his or her country, permanently, just on the say-so of the country&#39s legislature, court, and/or military.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:04:57 -0000

Yes, what are those proceedings.
What is their legal process not one you have made up to satisfy your standards?

Ellis, I am not adequate to the task of teaching you about the last 800 years of legal and political history that you obviously don't know.

Seriously. I don't know what else I can say. I explained what I meant by legal proceedings and you obviously don't understand what I wrote because you asked the question again.

Truly, Ellis, there is nothing more I can say to explain to you what legal proceedings are. I'm sorry.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

Leonidas — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:44:26 -0000

Let me repeat this point of mine. Note the word immediately. The Supreme Court followed the law and ordered the immediate removal of Zelaya, when he refused to listen to the warnings. They upheld th law as written in Article 239 of their Constitution.

"No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."

-- Article 239 of Honduras&#39s Constitution

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2....

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:42:39 -0000

What is their legal process not one you have made up to satisfy your standards?

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

EEllis — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:35:43 -0000

Kathy said"After PROVING, via the use of legally prescribed proceedings, that those conditions have been met.

Can I make it any clearer?"

Yes, what are those proceedings.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:01:25 -0000

The Honduran government has the right to remove their president under certain conditions, just as the US does.

After PROVING, via the use of legally prescribed proceedings, that those conditions have been met.

Can I make it any clearer?

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:59:16 -0000

The Supreme Court followed the law and ordered the immediate removal of Zelaya, when he refused to listen to the warnings. They upheld th law as written in Article 239 of their Constitution.

But they did not follow any legal process for PROVING that Zelaya had committed the constitutional violations they say he committed.

It does not get any clearer than this, folks.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

kathykattenburg — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:57:02 -0000

What is the "legally prescribed process" in Honduras for doing so?

Usually, a legally prescribed process ("a" is the word I used, not "the," which actually makes a meaningful difference to what I wrote) involves arrest and/or formal notification of charges filed against one; after which there is a trial or some kind of court proceeding in which both sides are represented by attorneys, evidence is presented, and the defendent is given an opportunity to confront witnesses, present evidence, etc.; after which there is a verdict, either by jury or by a judge or panel of judges; and, if the verdict is guilty, a sentencing. A legally prescribed process includes guidelines for sentencing, so that the court cannot simply impose any sentence it wishes -- and I am not aware of any legal, democratic process in the world by which a government official who was fairly and legitimately elected to office can be summarily removed from office, at gunpoint, with none of the legal proceedings I just enumerated, and exiled from his or her country, permanently, just on the say-so of the country's legislature, court, and/or military.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

DaGoat — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:55:29 -0000

EEllis I think that really is the crux of the issue. If Zelaya&#39s removal from office was legal under Honduran law the whole argument about a coup falls apart. As far as I can tell it was legal. The Honduran government has the right to remove their president under certain conditions, just as the US does.

The left is focusing on the use of the military implying that any use of the military automatically means there was a coup. As the Honduran Supreme Court has said though the military was used mainly to serve the warrant, and was not unilaterally removing Zelaya from office. I will add I think the actions of the military and placing Zalaya in exile were excessive but those are secondary issues.

Whether Zelaya is a leftist also is not relevant to whether his removal was legal under Honduran law. This is where I disagree with AustinRoth - the comparisons to Castro and others are interesting but not relevant.

Re: Honduran Coup Leads to Predictable Violence

Leonidas — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:44:26 -0000

"No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."

-- Article 239 of Honduras's Constitution

http://www.honduras.net/hon.......