The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

lilybart — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:57:36 -0000

what a pile of horse-hockey!!

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

lilybart — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:57:36 -0000

what a pile of horse-hockey!!

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

tinydoctor — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:44:34 -0000

On Palin, I liked what Dahlia Lithwick wrote at Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2222523/

Also this comment to Lithwick&#39s essay:

"Between the June 2007 Alaska cruise where Sarah Palin was introduced to the GOP establishment and her disastrous Sept 2008 interview with Katie Couric, the Republicans never really talked with Sarah Palin in what we call English. They talked in that distinctive Republican code made up of bumper sticker sayings.
This is how she got through the vetting process. Her interviewers listened attentively while Palin talked in bumper sticker code and they concluded that they were listening to a genius. This is weirdly close to the plot of the movie "Being There". For fifteen months Sarah Palin played the role of Chauncey Gardiner."
-- pwoxby

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

DrOmed — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:44:34 -0000

On Palin, I liked what Dahlia Lithwick wrote at Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/222...

Also this comment to Lithwick's essay:

"Between the June 2007 Alaska cruise where Sarah Palin was introduced to the GOP establishment and her disastrous Sept 2008 interview with Katie Couric, the Republicans never really talked with Sarah Palin in what we call English. They talked in that distinctive Republican code made up of bumper sticker sayings.
This is how she got through the vetting process. Her interviewers listened attentively while Palin talked in bumper sticker code and they concluded that they were listening to a genius. This is weirdly close to the plot of the movie "Being There". For fifteen months Sarah Palin played the role of Chauncey Gardiner."
-- pwoxby

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

DLS — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:43:47 -0000

"defending John Kerry"

Actually, I&#39ve stated before that Swift Boaters (who had to rush in boats up Vietnamese rivers, at all times subject to enemy fire from the banks, and to traps like log booms leading to ambushes), including John Kerry, had to have a lot of courage to face the environment they did.

* * *

"For the left, I guess talking about Palin beats talking about massive budget deficits, the lack of job creation, the Democrats demand for even more stimulus spending, and the impact of the coming energy, environmental, health, and employment regulations."

I&#39ve griped, to little avail until just now, though the griping was open and deliberately so, as it was merited.

* * *

"why is there so much commotion over a person who isnt running for anything?"

She is an object of hatred, and there is more commotion than usual because she became popular -- ironically, more popular (and stoutly defended) after she began to be the object of such hatred.

She was attractive at first blush, which competed with Obama&#39s American Idolatry, and thus for votes, and thus with the expected success of the Democrats in the 2008 general election, which itself, that there was any serious competition, was hated, too.

* * *

"In spite of your desire that people stop commenting on Palin, she is/was a frontrunner for the Republican presidential nomination and has just done something very unusual. That is worthy of comment and consideration from those who follow politics."

There is no justification for the obscession (not to mention the extent of hatred) that Palin has drawn.

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

DLS — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:43:47 -0000

"defending John Kerry"

Actually, I've stated before that Swift Boaters (who had to rush in boats up Vietnamese rivers, at all times subject to enemy fire from the banks, and to traps like log booms leading to ambushes), including John Kerry, had to have a lot of courage to face the environment they did.

* * *

"For the left, I guess talking about Palin beats talking about massive budget deficits, the lack of job creation, the Democrats demand for even more stimulus spending, and the impact of the coming energy, environmental, health, and employment regulations."

I've griped, to little avail until just now, though the griping was open and deliberately so, as it was merited.

* * *

"why is there so much commotion over a person who isnt running for anything?"

She is an object of hatred, and there is more commotion than usual because she became popular -- ironically, more popular (and stoutly defended) after she began to be the object of such hatred.

She was attractive at first blush, which competed with Obama's American Idolatry, and thus for votes, and thus with the expected success of the Democrats in the 2008 general election, which itself, that there was any serious competition, was hated, too.

* * *

"In spite of your desire that people stop commenting on Palin, she is/was a frontrunner for the Republican presidential nomination and has just done something very unusual. That is worthy of comment and consideration from those who follow politics."

There is no justification for the obscession (not to mention the extent of hatred) that Palin has drawn.

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

spirasol — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:29:33 -0000

Gee, I guess my comments about the DSM IV can be dismissed.............I guess I&#39ll curl up and lick my narcissistic wounds for a while.

Hey folks the DSM has mostly to do with Diagnosing and not with doing therapy, therefore, most therapists place little importance on it, often asking clients, for the benefit of insurance reimbursement to diagnose themselves. Psychiatrists however justify the prescribing of certain meds to certain diagnosis. Actually the choice of meds should follow diagnosis. Since it is isn&#39t as scientific as it might seem, I have seen many a Doc change the diagnosis to fit the medication he now wishes to try. In a society as litigious as ours, this can be very important.

Below are two up to date articles for those interested.

Financial Ties between DSM-IV Panel Members and the Pharmaceutical Industry
Lisa Cosgrovea, Sheldon Krimskyb, Manisha Vijayaraghavana, Lisa Schneidera

Abstract
Background: Increasing attention has been given to the transparency of potential conflicts of interest in clinical medicine and biomedical sciences, particularly in journal publishing and science advisory panels. The authors examined the degree and type of financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry of panel members responsible for revisions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM). Methods: By using multimodal screening techniques the authors investigated the financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry of 170 panel members who contributed to the diagnostic criteria produced for the DSM-IV and the DSM-IV-TR. Results: Of the 170 DSM panel members 95 (56%) had one or more financial associations with companies in the pharmaceutical industry. One hundred percent of the members of the panels on &#39Mood Disorders&#39 and &#39Schizophrenia and Other Psychotic Disorders&#39 had financial ties to drug companies. The leading categories of financial interest held by panel members were research funding (42%), consultancies (22%) and speakers bureau (16%). Conclusions: Our inquiry into the relationships between DSM panel members and the pharmaceutical industry demonstrates that there are strong financial ties between the industry and those who are responsible for developing and modifying the diagnostic criteria for mental illness. The connections are especially strong in those diagnostic areas where drugs are the first line of treatment for mental disorders. Full disclosure by DSM panel members of their financial relationships with for-profit entities that manufacture drugs used in the treatment of mental illness is recommended.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - - -- - - - -- - -
CounterPunch
Drug Companies and Psychiatrists
Partners in Crime
Eugenia Tsao reports on the upcoming revision of one of the most important books in America, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Here’s where the drug lords, the shrinks and the insurance companies collude in establishing hundreds of bogus psychic conditions requiring the psychotropic drugs from which they reap billions every year.

As for narcissistic personality disorder the lay public tends to confuse simple grandiosity with the actual diagnosis which carries a deeper layer of self loathing and inability to empathize, among other traits.

That said, those occupations that involve power, public aggrandizement, and wealth do attract, like bees to honey, those who love to be at the center of things.

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:08:52 -0000

perhaps one of the paradoxes of Palin is she is like those mythical animals that are two different animals. . .
the head part is the "Pit Bull with lipstick". . .and. . . her body which hold the heart and emotions is a vunerable lamb. . . maybe the speech was more evident of "wounded" than healthy or pathological. . .and who would not be in the "gladiator-ish" political arena whereloosing is bruising and humiliating at that level . . .

am looking forward to watching the movie I, Worst of All on Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz...i had not heard of her, but the movie is available on Netflix. . .

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

Ghostdreams — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:04:11 -0000

Doc...
Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz...
What a coincidence!
I only recently saw the movie (biopic) about her! (I, Worst of All) and was totally taken by it.
She was an amazing woman!
What I have read by her was truly amazing stuff. I wish the translators would get on the stick so all of her work was available.

And ...
PLEASE write an alternative DSM!!! PUH LEASE!
I (and many, many others) have spent years being misdiagnosed over and over again due to that #^@$ manual...
And, btw, my misdiagnosing is still in the works ..
I recently acquired another one. Just how many psych diagnoses can one woman have?
It wouldn&#39t be so irritating if even ONE of these "diagnoses" even vaguely described my "condition" (they say "your condition" while I say "my situation")- and about that condition -
What is wrong, really, with a desire to draw things that many other people don&#39t seem to see?
Writing, painting, acting, drawing, drumming, dancing, singing, sculpting, inking, printing, performing.... To express the things we feel and see and know in our hearts and souls that others do not or cannot see ...
Isn&#39t that the very nature of art, to express these things...to express ourselves ?

Admittedly, I do not have the answers but I do have lots of questions for the psychiatric industry that produced the DSM (such as, why do psychiatric doctors tell people that mental illness is biological when there is absolutely no proof for that assertion?) ..:P
What can I say? When it comes to psychiatry, I&#39m the ultimate skeptic. Heeh

Laters!
Ghost

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

spirasol — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:29:33 -0000

Gee, I guess my comments about the DSM IV can be dismissed.............I guess I'll curl up and lick my narcissistic wounds for a while.

Hey folks the DSM has mostly to do with Diagnosing and not with doing therapy, therefore, most therapists place little importance on it, often asking clients, for the benefit of insurance reimbursement to diagnose themselves. Psychiatrists however justify the prescribing of certain meds to certain diagnosis. Actually the choice of meds should follow diagnosis. Since it is isn't as scientific as it might seem, I have seen many a Doc change the diagnosis to fit the medication he now wishes to try. In a society as litigious as ours, this can be very important.

Below are two up to date articles for those interested.

Financial Ties between DSM-IV Panel Members and the Pharmaceutical Industry
Lisa Cosgrovea, Sheldon Krimskyb, Manisha Vijayaraghavana, Lisa Schneidera

Abstract
Background: Increasing attention has been given to the transparency of potential conflicts of interest in clinical medicine and biomedical sciences, particularly in journal publishing and science advisory panels. The authors examined the degree and type of financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry of panel members responsible for revisions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM). Methods: By using multimodal screening techniques the authors investigated the financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry of 170 panel members who contributed to the diagnostic criteria produced for the DSM-IV and the DSM-IV-TR. Results: Of the 170 DSM panel members 95 (56%) had one or more financial associations with companies in the pharmaceutical industry. One hundred percent of the members of the panels on 'Mood Disorders' and 'Schizophrenia and Other Psychotic Disorders' had financial ties to drug companies. The leading categories of financial interest held by panel members were research funding (42%), consultancies (22%) and speakers bureau (16%). Conclusions: Our inquiry into the relationships between DSM panel members and the pharmaceutical industry demonstrates that there are strong financial ties between the industry and those who are responsible for developing and modifying the diagnostic criteria for mental illness. The connections are especially strong in those diagnostic areas where drugs are the first line of treatment for mental disorders. Full disclosure by DSM panel members of their financial relationships with for-profit entities that manufacture drugs used in the treatment of mental illness is recommended.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - - -- - - - -- - -
CounterPunch
Drug Companies and Psychiatrists
Partners in Crime
Eugenia Tsao reports on the upcoming revision of one of the most important books in America, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Here’s where the drug lords, the shrinks and the insurance companies collude in establishing hundreds of bogus psychic conditions requiring the psychotropic drugs from which they reap billions every year.

As for narcissistic personality disorder the lay public tends to confuse simple grandiosity with the actual diagnosis which carries a deeper layer of self loathing and inability to empathize, among other traits.

That said, those occupations that involve power, public aggrandizement, and wealth do attract, like bees to honey, those who love to be at the center of things.

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:08:52 -0000

perhaps one of the paradoxes of Palin is she is like those mythical animals that are two different animals. . .
the head part is the "Pit Bull with lipstick". . .and. . . her body which hold the heart and emotions is a vunerable lamb. . . maybe the speech was more evident of "wounded" than healthy or pathological. . .and who would not be in the "gladiator-ish" political arena where loosing is bruising and humiliating and the stakes really high at that level . . .

am looking forward to watching the movie I, Worst of All on Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz...i had not heard of her, but the movie is available on Netflix. . .

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

Ghostdreams — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:16:28 -0000

Sparrow,
I really was not pointing fingers at you. In truth, I saw a couple of posts mention something in regards to the disorder and Palin and then, when I did a search on Google ..
Ohmigod..
It&#39s everywhere on the net!
"Palin HAS NPD!"
In my reply to Doc&#39s post, I was actually referring to people, off site, that are proclaiming themselves licensed therapists (or representing licensed therapists) and, according to them, "This IS what Sarah Palin is (narcissistic personality disorder).
I just thought for these people to proclaim themselves professional therapists and then state as a fact that Palin has a personality disorder to be rather ...bizarre, but in no way was I referring to you, Sparrow.
I am truly sorry if it seemed that way luv.

Please accept my most sincere apologies.
Ghost

PS GREAT youtube video! Ty for posting it!

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:31:14 -0000

Dr. E. and Ghost am truly off subject here, but after thinking about the comments a bit more. . .did not express what i wanted to say about Palin very effective. . .Ghost your "tirade" about using the DSM is something that i can readily understand and appreciate. . .A number of years ago i left a successful professional practice and one of the main burs under my blanket was how everyone "needed" to be labeled with a strong enough diagnosis that would insure the insurance companies pay. . . I always felt real scuzzy about giving diagnosis for insurance justification. . . in truth i saw very few pathological people in private practice, but rather people that where the most courageous in our culture. . .but here is my divide. . .

I am so over what is happening with too many of our "leaders". . .and in truth i do see "lots" of unhealthy narcissism in politicians, high profile media, and all too often religious ministers. . . . . maybe, one on one, i would not be as unmerciful to them. . .since it is not allowed to cuss on TMV comments maybe words or concepts like narcissism is a second best. . .narcissism more intelligent than creep, jerk, or butthead. . .

am trying to learn how to be connected with the TMV tribe without a nasty egoic insertion, because i like these folks, but as you say Dr. E. it is a dance of heart and ongoing "imperfection". . .

am already a bit off topic and i am concerned that Tidbits will be soon throwing a red handkerchief down, but will return to one of my favorite video by Papaji Keep Quiet. . .and try to stay there for awhile. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWl0fiPZhVg

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

archangel — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:26:34 -0000

dear Ghost, I think OrdinarySparrow was talking about that DSM profile being potentially applicable to &#39some politicians.&#39 I dont think she had said, or I missed it, that it was applicable specifically to Governor Palin.

Also Ghost, you are of course correct; I have changed my thinking about the DSM over the years, in part because of the entering and then dismissing and then arguments within the APA (American Psychologists Assoc) headed by politicized evangelicals about putting back in the DSM... homosexuality as a perversion. I find/ found that disgusting and inhuman, that diagnostics which are supposed to be science based evidentiary conclusions, wound up even allowing for a moment, a religious idea to attempt to pathologize certain groups.

Long ago, diagnostics and diagnosticians like Dr. Bruno Bettelheim introduced mal-ideas into the culture of Eu and American psychology that took more than half a century to knock uniquivocally as not only racist, sexist and flying leaps of the diagnoticians own personal fantasies... instead of hard evidence on the part of the diagnosticians: One of those fantasies accepted by most diagnosticians of the time was that mothers caused their children to have autism. Many diagnostics of eld are in the realm of phrenology and diagnosing intelligence by facial features.

I have written about public figures and what might be going on with them psychologically. Than Shwe, and other dictators like Mugabe, are in my opinion, sick. When I speak of them as character disordered, what I hope to accomplish is to show/ teach/ strenghten the idea already in heartful people&#39s minds... that character disorder has no known cure that we know about... that persons who carry this will never step down as a result of reasoning, for humanity&#39s sake, nor for any other reasoned reason.

I am glad Ghost, that you brought up what is on a lot of healers/ helpers/helping professionals&#39 minds nowadays... how is the DSM, or where is the DSM, not evidence based. That is a very important differentiation. For we all were trained to follow the DSM and only the DSM, which has as its advantage, a common language understood by shrinks and helping professionals all over the world. IF it&#39s science based evidence that is not spun with animus toward a certain individual or group who harms no one by the fact of being.

Regarding Sarah Palin, again, a person who thinks/ feels/ knows they have a fate, has a certain amount of what is called &#39healthy narcissim"... meaning they believe &#39their view&#39 is essential to the world continuing either locally or more globally. The persons each of us admire for whatever they&#39ve done that seems the cat&#39s pajamas to us.... have a certain amount of standing upon &#39what I think is more important than what you think&#39.... one person coming to mind

is Sor Juana who told the bishop of Mexico to go take a leap, she was going to write her ecstatic poetry and her critiques of &#39the princes&#39 of the church despite the bishop ordering her to be silent. Today, several hundred years later, hers is near the only written work surviving the colonization/occupation of Mexico by Spain, and some of the most beautiful.

Like that. That could be called narcissism. But, you know, in all, I would prefer not to use psychiatric terms to explain ballsiness and goodness and usefulness of viewpoint, because it carries the whiff of pathology to it, even when one says &#39positive narcissism.&#39 I&#39ve been thinking of writing an alter-DSM. lol

dr.e

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

archangel — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:04:23 -0000

ordinary sparrow, That part about &#39all I have to do is look in mirror to see &#39mess.&#39 Quit that. (flapping hands at you... something my elders used to do to take poisoning ideas &#39out of the air surrounding a person&#39...lol) As you know, many others see your commentaries as uniquely reflectivel. I&#39ve no doubt of that veracity. If you meant, imperfect, join us all. We&#39re a great crowd of &#39the perfectly imperfect&#39 who somehow lost our ways in the gallaxies and landed on earth instead. Havent you ever wondered why everything seems so strange on earth, and we so inept to grasp everything ...and others seem to do so easily? lol.

re positive projection, there are two sides to it, one lossless, one useful, depending on what one does with one&#39s own projection onto othets. But, often the positive projection blocks the one who projects thusly... from developing in themselves whatever it is they are projecting on others.. assume for a minute it is a fine, fine somethingorother.

In tribes, this is not considered negative, as many roles /professions are assigned ...often by those who seem to have best abiity to imagine the future re others&#39 talents. And there is little diversification. Not impossible, but not likely to be the sole healer and the best hunter at the same time, for instance.

But in other cultural evolutions, it is considered that each person ought develop in many ways, not just be assigned one role. I think, that maybe the &#39test&#39 might be what kind of life does one live given whatever projections by self or from others.

I think projections in general can tell us far far more about what we are, (esp in terms of undeveloped gifts and foibles) than how others are put together.

Where the &#39analytical psychology&#39 theory breaks down I think, is in imagining that if it&#39s projection, it only carries info about oneself, and ought be withdrawn from the other, and dealt with within oneself.

I&#39d say sometimes a projection is a telescope, other times a microscope... and the lens can be turned outwardly fruitfully sometimes, and also inwardly fruitfully sometimes.

Re Governor Palin, I&#39d personally like to hear more from the people who know her in Wasilla, than more and more politicos or as I mentioned, the man on CNN who actually wrote a book about her, and seemed to have the insight of a (forgive me) rubber plant.

Also, you are right about how one can wander about belieeving to one[s own detriment that what is held out by the greater culture as good, better, best is just that, when in fact, it is less than good, way un-better, and definitely not the best of or for the soul. You are exactly right on.

dr.e

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

Ghostdreams — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:04:11 -0000

And ...
PLEASE write an alternative DSM!!! PUH LEASE!
I (and many, many others) have spent years being misdiagnosed over and over again due to that #^@$ manual...
And, btw, my misdiagnosing is still in the works ..
I recently acquired another one. Just how many psych diagnoses can one woman have?
It wouldn't be so irritating if even ONE of these "diagnoses" even vaguely described my "condition" (they say "your condition" while I say "my situation")- and about that condition -
What is wrong, really, with a desire to draw things that many other people don't seem to see?
Writing, painting, acting, drawing, drumming, dancing, singing, sculpting, inking, printing, performing.... To express the things we feel and see and know in our hearts and souls that others do not or cannot see ...
Isn't that the very nature of art, to express these things...to express ourselves ?

Admittedly, I do not have the answers but I do have lots of questions for the psychiatric industry that produced the DSM (such as, why do psychiatric doctors tell people that mental illness is biological when there is absolutely no proof for that assertion?) ..:P
What can I say? When it comes to psychiatry, I'm the ultimate skeptic. Heeh

Laters!
Ghost

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:02:17 -0000

Ghost. . .please re-read my comment. . .especially the last quote. . .

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

Ghostdreams — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:43:10 -0000

Before I go off on my tirade about Gov. Palin&#39s "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" I would like to point out that at no time did we see Doc Estes&#39 pull out any DSM IV name calling devices.

Doc, I think, gave a compassionate analysis of Gov. Palin&#39s speech - there is no "labeling" or stereotyping in her post. This is important as there are some real problems this DSM IV stuff that&#39s circulating the net not the least of which is the obvious issue of ethics (or lack thereof) involved.

That some folks will use the DSM IV-TR to advance their argument concerning the unsuitability of Sarah Palin for public office is unavoidable but the idea that there are licensed therapists out there doing this kind of thing is another issue altogether.

To me the idea of a licensed therapist diagnosing a "patient" without the patients knowledge or consent, someone they&#39ve never personally met (and most certainly not in a therapeutic setting), hits me as very, very, bad medicine.

And let&#39s move on to the "diagnoses" that are being handed out.
It seems the popular one is Narcissistic personality disorder ...
But what about some of the other ones - less flaunted, I think, because their titles don&#39t sound as ominous as "narcissistic personality disorder."
(Before listing these, I should note that *I* can see any of these "diagnoses" being applied to Sarah Palin - in each and every category, I could pull out videotapes to show where these "symptoms" exist).
Let&#39s try Histrionic (excerpted from DSM IV-TR)
A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: (1) is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention (2) interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior (3) displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions (4) consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self (5) has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail (6) shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion (7) is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances (8) considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are.

That one could fit quite well, actually. So, is Palin Histrionic? Inquiring minds want to know...but ..
Wait...let&#39s look over another one .. How about (spinning the wheel) ...

BINGO! Schizotypal: (excerpted from DSM IV-TR) A. A pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference) (2) odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations) (3) unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions (4) odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped) (5) suspiciousness or paranoid ideation (6) inappropriate or constricted affect (7) behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar (8) lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives (9) excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self
That one sounds good too, don&#39t cha think? Oh WAIT! What about ...Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder: (excerpted from DSM IV-TR) A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following: (1) is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost (2) shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met) (3) is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity) (4) is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification) (5) is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value (6) is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things (7) adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes (8) shows rigidity and stubbornness

I don&#39t know if I&#39m making my point but ...
The fact is, without knowing Ms. Palin and doing the extensive amount of work needed in order to come up with a diagnosis such as "Narcissistic Personality Disorder." all of these supposed "diagnoses" from "licensed therapists" do nothing but show the "therapists" to be unprofessional, unethical and have a quite a few "ego" issues of their own they should be working on (instead of posting any drivel they have a hankering to, on the net).
I think in this regard, Gov Palin is being dragged in the mud for something that she, personally, has nothing to do with and to engage in this kind of mudslinging is wrong (those therapists need to take a deep hard look at themselves, if you ask me).
One other thing...
The DSM IV-TR is absolutely rabid about the misuse of these "labels" but it seems that there are quite a few "Dr. Snakes Medicine Show" type of shrinks willing to overlook the ethics as well as the DSM IV warning (which reads as follows):
The specified diagnostic criteria for each mental disorder are offered as guidelines for making diagnoses, because it has been demonstrated that the use of such criteria enhances agreement among clinicians and investigators. The proper use of these criteria requires specialized clinical training that provides both a body of knowledge and clinical skills.
These diagnostic criteria and the DSM-IV Classification of mental disorders reflect a consensus of current formulations of evolving knowledge in our field. They do not encompass, however, all the conditions for which people may be treated or that may be appropriate topics for research efforts.
The purpose of DSM-IV is to provide clear descriptions of diagnostic categories in order to enable clinicians and investigators to diagnose, communicate about, study, and treat people with various mental disorders

My twenty two dollars worth (sorry for the length of the post but copying and pasting examples from the DSM IV took up quite a bit of space - my apologies for that).
Ghosty

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:05:38 -0000

Dr. E. there is such thing as positive projection, and i will place money that if you where to examine your life that much of your experiences of pain and suffering came from positive projection. believing that others are as soulful as your are . .Dr. E. some powerful women that came from small towns are just not as healthy or good as you. . .

just my 1 cent worth
ordinary sparrow

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

Ghostdreams — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:16:28 -0000

Sparrow,
I really was not pointing fingers at you. In truth, I saw a couple of posts mention something in regards to the disorder and Palin and then, when I did a search on Google ..
Ohmigod..
It's everywhere on the net!
"Palin HAS NPD!"
In my reply to Doc's post, I was actually referring to people, off site, that are proclaiming themselves licensed therapists (or representing licensed therapists) and, according to them, "This IS what Sarah Palin is (narcissistic personality disorder).
I just thought for these people to proclaim themselves professional therapists and then state as a fact that Palin has a personality disorder to be rather ...bizarre, but in no way was I referring to you, Sparrow.
I am truly sorry if it seemed that way luv.

Please accept my most sincere apologies.
Ghost

PS GREAT youtube video! Ty for posting it!

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:31:14 -0000

I am so over what is happening with too many of our "leaders". . .and in truth i do see "lots" of unhealthy narcissism in politicians, high profile media, and all too often religious ministers. . . . . and Palin may or may not be in that grouping?. . . maybe, one on one, i would not be as unmerciful to them. . .since it is not allowed to cuss on TMV comments maybe words or concepts like narcissism is a second best. . .narcissism more intelligent than creep, jerk, or butthead. . .

am trying to learn how to be connected with the TMV tribe without a nasty egoic insertion, because i like these folks, but as you say Dr. E. it is a dance of heart and ongoing "imperfection". . .

am already a bit off topic and i am concerned that Tidbits will be soon throwing a red handkerchief down, but will return to one of my favorite video by Papaji Keep Quiet. . .and try to stay there for awhile. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

spirasol — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:37:27 -0000

Well the cycle of news evolves so quickly it is difficult to deny an addiction to wanting to be on top of things; affairs, death of beloved pop stars, and 4th of July resignations. I admit I can&#39t keep up.

Palin: she&#39s sinking, she&#39s dead, no, no, she is swimming, she is swimming on her belly on climate change snow with one hand tied behind her back. And make no mistake if there ever was a cornered wild animal, read reptilian brain, she is one, and will go hoof and fang against those who besmirch her family.

Well that must be attractive to us all, a new feminism indeed, Sarah protector of families, and who wouldn&#39t stand down an American invasion to protect the family. C&#39mon, didn&#39t your heart break a little when you read of the killing of the sons of Saddam..........perhaps not.

The DSM description reads like a politicians job description..............yea the DSM is a weird instrument, if for no other instrument because it it concocted by psychiatrists and pharmacists thus the biological undertow....................still healthy narcissism would be hard pressed to exist in the hearts of the average politician.

yea, yea, she is going, she is coming and as someone else said so are jobs, health care, climate care, etc.

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

archangel — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:26:34 -0000

dear Ghost, I think OrdinarySparrow was talking about that DSM profile being potentially applicable to 'some politicians.' I dont think she had said, or I missed it, that it was applicable specifically to Governor Palin.

Also Ghost, you are of course correct; I have changed my thinking about the DSM over the years, in part because of the entering and then dismissing and then arguments within the APA (American Psychologists Assoc) headed by politicized evangelicals about putting back in the DSM... homosexuality as a perversion. I find/ found that disgusting and inhuman, that diagnostics which are supposed to be science based evidentiary conclusions, wound up even allowing for a moment, a religious idea to attempt to pathologize certain groups.

Long ago, diagnostics and diagnosticians like Dr. Bruno Bettelheim introduced mal-ideas into the culture of Eu and American psychology that took more than half a century to knock uniquivocally as not only racist, sexist and flying leaps of the diagnoticians own personal fantasies... instead of hard evidence on the part of the diagnosticians: One of those fantasies accepted by most diagnosticians of the time was that mothers caused their children to have autism. Many diagnostics of eld are in the realm of phrenology and diagnosing intelligence by facial features.

I have written about public figures and what might be going on with them psychologically. Than Shwe, and other dictators like Mugabe, are in my opinion, sick. When I speak of them as character disordered, what I hope to accomplish is to show/ teach/ strenghten the idea already in heartful people's minds... that character disorder has no known cure that we know about... that persons who carry this will never step down as a result of reasoning, for humanity's sake, nor for any other reasoned reason.

I am glad Ghost, that you brought up what is on a lot of healers/ helpers/helping professionals' minds nowadays... how is the DSM, or where is the DSM, not evidence based. That is a very important differentiation. For we all were trained to follow the DSM and only the DSM, which has as its advantage, a common language understood by shrinks and helping professionals all over the world. IF it's science based evidence that is not spun with animus toward a certain individual or group who harms no one by the fact of being.

Regarding Sarah Palin, again, a person who thinks/ feels/ knows they have a fate, has a certain amount of what is called 'healthy narcissim"... meaning they believe 'their view' is essential to the world continuing either locally or more globally. The persons each of us admire for whatever they've done that seems the cat's pajamas to us.... have a certain amount of standing upon 'what I think is more important than what you think'.... one person coming to mind

is Sor Juana who told the bishop of Mexico to go take a leap, she was going to write her ecstatic poetry and her critiques of 'the princes' of the church despite the bishop ordering her to be silent. Today, several hundred years later, hers is near the only written work surviving the colonization/occupation of Mexico by Spain, and some of the most beautiful.

Like that. That could be called narcissism. But, you know, in all, I would prefer not to use psychiatric terms to explain ballsiness and goodness and usefulness of viewpoint, because it carries the whiff of pathology to it, even when one says 'positive narcissism.' I've been thinking of writing an alter-DSM. lol

dr.e

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

archangel — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:04:23 -0000

ordinary sparrow, That part about 'all I have to do is look in mirror to see 'mess.' Quit that. (flapping hands at you... something my elders used to do to take poisoning ideas 'out of the air surrounding a person'...lol) As you know, many others see your commentaries as uniquely reflectivel. I've no doubt of that veracity. If you meant, imperfect, join us all. We're a great crowd of 'the perfectly imperfect' who somehow lost our ways in the gallaxies and landed on earth instead. Havent you ever wondered why everything seems so strange on earth, and we so inept to grasp everything ...and others seem to do so easily? lol.

re positive projection, there are two sides to it, one lossless, one useful, depending on what one does with one's own projection onto othets. But, often the positive projection blocks the one who projects thusly... from developing in themselves whatever it is they are projecting on others.. assume for a minute it is a fine, fine somethingorother.

In tribes, this is not considered negative, as many roles /professions are assigned ...often by those who seem to have best abiity to imagine the future re others' talents. And there is little diversification. Not impossible, but not likely to be the sole healer and the best hunter at the same time, for instance.

But in other cultural evolutions, it is considered that each person ought develop in many ways, not just be assigned one role. I think, that maybe the 'test' might be what kind of life does one live given whatever projections by self or from others.

I think projections in general can tell us far far more about what we are, (esp in terms of undeveloped gifts and foibles) than how others are put together.

Where the 'analytical psychology' theory breaks down I think, is in imagining that if it's projection, it only carries info about oneself, and ought be withdrawn from the other, and dealt with within oneself.

I'd say sometimes a projection is a telescope, other times a microscope... and the lens can be turned outwardly fruitfully sometimes, and also inwardly fruitfully sometimes.

Re Governor Palin, I'd personally like to hear more from the people who know her in Wasilla, than more and more politicos or as I mentioned, the man on CNN who actually wrote a book about her, and seemed to have the insight of a (forgive me) rubber plant.

Also, you are right about how one can wander about believing to one's own detriment that what is held out by the greater culture as good, better, best is just that, when in fact, it is less than good, way un-better, and definitely not the best of or for the soul. You are exactly right on.

dr.e

Re: How the Subtext Reads in Governor Sarah Palin’s Resignation Speech

ordinarysparrow — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:02:17 -0000

Ghost. . .please re-read my comment. . .especially the last quote. . .and at no time was a diagnosis made, but rather a statement that "i do not know". . . and what i was trying to convey that when it comes to Palin that there are so many positive and negative projections that i do not know if she is a visionary or something else, which might fall in the psycho pathology reign. . .

"At this point, I think that she is delusional and extremely out of touch with reality." Ghost that sound to me to be psychiatric/psychological language also???? but then i do not have a problem with you saying that. . .Palin is a Rorschach ink blot as far as i am concerned. . . but please do not read i am suggesting you are delusional or extremely out of touch with reality. I promise that is not what i am suggesting. . .sometimes there are people that are ink blots. .

and do let me apologize that i was not able to communicate that effective. . .