The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

goddess1 — Fri, 23 May 2008 14:59:48 -0000

I am a woman, 66, Black, wealthy, and with a J.D. Degree. I have all the demographic criteria to be a Barack Obama supporter. That said, I am a staunch supporter of Hillary Clinton.

Your comment to jmacmanus was outright, over the top nasty. I am a participant in politics enough to know that to call every white person a racist if the person is not an Obama supporter is a Barak Obama campaign talking point. Supporters of both campaigns receive talking points by email on a regular basis.That talking point of "racist" because you are white is counter-productive. Just as labeling me an "Aunt Tom" would be counter-productive.

Calling white persons racist who do not support Obama has by now become expected rhetoric from Obama supporters so it rolls off the backs of most white Clinton supporters. It was not your expected racist comment that I call nasty. The nastiness was your comment about the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King and the liklihood that jmacmanus opposed his birthday holiday and probably found fault with him . You have zero basis for saying that. For all that you know, she may have been one of the white freedom riders. It is comments like yours that drive a deeper wedge between Obama and Clinton supporters.
If Obama is the nominee, he will need every Clinton supporter in the country to vote for him. He will also NEED every contribution he can get to battle the Republican machine effectvely. At the beginning of this campaign to become the Democratic nominee, there was no question in my mind - whoever the Democratic nominee - I would vote for the person. I am no longer of that thinking. The comments of Obama supporters that Black Americans who do not support him are traitors to the race have swayed me out of my "either one will do thinking."

In political campaigns, I also vote with my check book. Unlike James Carville, a well known political analyst and a Clinton supporter, who says he will write Obama a check if he is the nominee, I will not write Obama a check. To the extent that I am not a legitimate Black American voter because I do not support Obama, that is the same extent to which I will not write him a legitimate black golden check.
I have wonderful Black friends, male and female. I have wonderful White friends, male and female. Some of us support Hillary, both black and white.. Others of us support Barack. both black and white..

Your paint/ write with a broad brush, lady, with no discernable boundaries. Mind out that you don't get your paint on an area that for you would be the most least desirable area to have your paint. Racists come in all colors!

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

ToHo95 — Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:06 -0000

Jill,

When you say that you don't trust Obama, are you also saying that you do trust Hillary? What is there about her record, including her various votes on Iraq being motivated purely by political concerns and her baffling Bosnia sniper story, that cause you to trust her?

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Thu, 22 May 2008 08:27:15 -0000

Pacatrue and Runasim - I understand re: the labeling. And confess that I've been in a fog about labeling for a couple of months now. Never had been before but then started delving into women of color and black v. white feminist stuff and the writings on those topics include tons and tons of labels. That has absolutely floored me - my education and experience treats labels as stigmatizing and negative.

So I broached that with some women and their response was that the labeling for them in the context of the WOC conversations (and class privileged and gender this or that - there's just a whole bunch I apologize for not knowing off the top of my head yet) and was told that it's empowering to them - and that that's what the breakdown is. In other words, it seems that the use of labels is desired by some and maybe even the re-assigning of stigma, depending on the label.

Anyway - I'm really not sure. But I agree - personally? I don't call myself a feminist even though I know others call me that. I just don't like the label because it's very limiting and not very accurate for me - in part because we just don't have a common broad description anymore.

HOWEVER - here is a great video called This is What a Feminist Looks Like. I really think it does a nice job of explaining/exploring where we are with the concept.

As for the older feminists thing, let me just say that, after being at a conference at MIT in March with 640 women in the media and activist groups, there is absolutely a divide between younger and older feminists. Now - whether that has a lot to do with Clinton's support or not, I have to defer to people who are gathering data.

But I can tell you from my experience since at least January that yes, I have met several women who are 55 or 60 and up who absolutely believe that it is okay to want Clinton just because she is a woman and that it is now or never.

There are also women under that age who feel the same way - but I do not believe their numbers are as large.

Again - this is all based on my experiences - not polling etc.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

pacatrue — Thu, 22 May 2008 03:31:32 -0000

Runasim said, "Something about this line of analyzing Hillary and her older feminsit supporters bothers me, though I can't quite put my finger on it concisely and clearly."

One thing that bothers me is... how to express... I'm not convinced that "older feminists" is an accurate portrayal of the hardcore support Sen. Clinton has or where it comes from. Maybe it's that the term feminist has been so abused by people of so many political persuasions (though of course it's a past time with some Talk Radio-type conservatives) for so long. It smacks of sidelining real women as "those feminists" again. It's labeling used to dismiss.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

runasim — Thu, 22 May 2008 01:04:40 -0000

One of the arguments I would use to persuade these women not to waste their votes foolishly would be to remind them about SC nominations that will be oming up soon.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

runasim — Wed, 21 May 2008 22:04:16 -0000

Something about this line of analyzing Hillary and her older feminsit supporters bothers me, though I can't quite put my finger on it concisely and clearly.

I just don't see the 'tribailism' or symbolism involved as being that much different from what happens with other voting phenomena.. Certainly, I recognize the historic symbolism in having the first woman (or first black) president, but the emotional and mental processes involved seem to me quite similar to what happens when people vote for the Party rather than the individual, or when they vote for a candidate who is 'likable ' rather than voting on issues.

When it comes to convincing them to vote a certain way, then, it also seems like the same reasoning is involved as in any oher campaign , Seduction (explain the benefits) mixed with scare tactics (explain the consequences) are the usual methods, and they're quite valid. , unless overdone,

When reaching out turns into pandering, I've never been able to identify clearly. One sounds so humanitarian,and the other so cynical, but where is the boundary,, exactly?

Then, too, statistics can't tell you what exactly it is about Hillary that created such passion. It's hard to believe that just any woman would have filled the bill. Was it Hillary the fighter , or Hillary with the Clinton brand name, perhaps?

If the disillusioned among them insist on voting against their interests, that seems lvery much like the economically challenged who vote for conservatives.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the historic firsts involved are unique in this campaign (first woman, first balck) but what human nature leads people to do is as old as the hills.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 22:00:47 -0000

Pacatrue - I agree - this is the David Gergen line of thinking. I keep thinking to myself about how people who make these decisions ache for what they thought they could have had - Gore for example - but they can't stop dead. They have to keep moving - and honestly, either one of them.

It's funny but maybe because I have a legal training, I can COMPLETELY understand how Obama is thinking that it's over, it's his and Clinton is thinking, it's not over until I say so. There really are arguments to be made for both of them - not necessarily good arguments, maybe not even rationale or believable, but again - lawyers throw in everything in their cases to see what sticks.

I'm just saying. I hope it ends SOON. I am so completely plutzed. lol

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

pacatrue — Wed, 21 May 2008 20:39:10 -0000

Going to your last comment, Jillmz, I am increasingly of the opinion that both candidates need each other if there is to be a Democratic win in November. I don't necessarily mean on the same ticket as candidates, but actively campaigning one for the other. I've never felt that Clinton had all that much to gain from being VP (she could be a better Senator), and Obama only gains a little. But the Obama needs Clinton telling her supporters that he's a good guy; and Clinton, though this is being ignored, needs the same from Obama.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Lynx — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:43:05 -0000

Jill, thanks for the links, I'll try to see if I can squeeze them into my rather overstuffed blog schedule. :)

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:34:26 -0000

Denise - I think that's a really honest comment - a lot of it resonates for me. I liked Bill Richardson too, after Biden and Dodd dropped out.

What's funny is - we haven't really seen anything yet that talks about how we need to wake up and smell the coffee re: not everyone who is eligible to vote does in fact vote. So who is to say WHAT the impact of not voting will be this year. I'm particularly leery of people who say that if McCain beats Obama, it will be Hillary Clinton's fault! I want to know if those same folks will thank her if Obama puts her on the ticket and he wins...

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

denisedh — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:26:09 -0000

I'm a white woman, 43, and a professional. I know I have been denied some opportunities due to my gender; these were subtle denials, but I am certain had I been raised upper middle class vs. working class, my opportunities would have been much greater (i.e., Ivy league schools instead of state schools for my education). Personally, I view SES as a really important factor in terms of denied opportunties and potential, although race and gender play a part too. That said, I have personally observed disastrous situations in which unqualified people gain positions based on race and gender (I mean Affirmative Action) and therefore would never support a candidate who seems incompetent based on the view that they had been denied opportunity due to race, gender, SES, etc.
Richardson was my first choice, Obama second, and Clinton probably last. I wasn't impressed with her management of the health care issue in 1993 and hadn't seen much to impress me since. A bigger issue was the fact that since I have been able to vote in presidential elections (1984), there has been only one election where a Bush or a Clinton weren't one of the choices. I liked Bill well enough, but family dynasty politics make me very uncomfortable. It's not logical, I know. If my choices were McCain or Clinton, I'd vote for her, with no enthusiasm and a lot of trepidation.
When voters feel this way, I think it's hard to persuade them. I don't know if that's on the minds of the over-50 female Clinton supporters (that uneasy feeling I described above), but if it is, I don't know how a campaign would address it, aside from acknowledging it openly and showing some respect for their concerns.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:13:05 -0000

Thanks, Janinedm -

I'd only say that I recognize her comments as unenlightened the way I
was prior to learning about/reading up on just how this election is
seen by black women - that's an incredibly important narrative to
really read, learn about and try to understand. I just get the sense
that she hasn't even tried to do that in a real way - but maybe
that's because I feel so sensitive to it now.

Thanks for engaging. :)

Jill

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

janinedm — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:08:12 -0000

Jill, I forgot to thank you for the link, though I saw my little...thing... with lynx as typical progressive infighting rather, than a white/black feminist thing. If we want to same thing, why the checks to make sure our intentions/ideologies are pure enough.

Shoot, I did a quick internet search and found a CBS study where 83% of Black people thought the Iraq war was a bad idea back in 2007. Who cares what everyone's reasons are for backing a candidate? If you can find common ground, take it. I'd take Robert Byrd and any Appalachians who want to join the fun.

As to the specific argument, better to have someone point out the spinach in your ideological teeth on the internet than at a dinner party that suddenly becomes awkward.

If I'm full of it, I hope someone lets me know here.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Lynx — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:52:29 -0000

Uh huh, and I'm being defensive? You're offended, I'm sorry about that, but I'm not going to take back my claim because I happen to believe it's true. Perhaps "tribal" was a bad choice of words, it honestly never crossed my mind that it could be considered offensive, mostly because I wasn't AIMING TO BE OFFENSIVE! I did say voting as a bloc, because 90% plus for one single candidate is damn near unanimous, and I did say that race was a factor, because I BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE. Since you read into it that I was saying race was the ONLY factor, I clarified. This is apparently not enough, but it's all I can offer.

Geez, now you've got me annoyed! Listen, you may not agree with the analysis, you may think I overstated the issue, but I deeply resent the insinuation that I think blacks are some sort of half wild primitive tribe that only sees color. An even cursory reading over of my first and second comments clearly shows that I hold no such position.

As for this "Finally, I'm glad you feel that sexism is dead or dying or whatever."
That is a laughable misrepresentation of my position, which I specifically went out of my way to deny in my first comment. I believe women have made great strides, and I personally believe that the issue of race is a "hotter" (in the sense of "controversial") than the one of gender. I do not think it is dead, though I hope it's on its way towards dying.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

janinedm — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:43:23 -0000

...and I meant to share my theory on the Black vote for Obama: it's long been understood that the traditional Democratic party platform is better for the Black community, soup to nuts, from civil liberties to education and child welfare. This has been understood despite pockets of this constituency that are very socially conservative. This same pragmatism definitely comes into play in the voting, where it's generally understood that the Dem is always the safer shot. It can even be seen with folk like Loviatar, who would rather know what he/she's going to get.

Now I think that this group has long wanted a more left leaning candidate (or at least one that seems to be so). I think that the same two candidates with reversed messaging would have very different numbers. My bet, and there's no way to test this, is that an Obama who talked about obliterating Iran wouldn't get above 35%. Again, this is pure conjecture, but it would explain why Clinton, Gore, and Kerry's numbers were so high and why Nader was ignored and why Hillary started out ahead in that constituency.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:37:44 -0000

I'm sorry DLS - could be because it's late in the day - gritting teeth - what exactly are you asking? :) It's been a helluva long day - I'm not following you - but want to.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

DLS — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:37:35 -0000

"I think the only thing you don't trust in him is his blackness."

It's an overdone issue by the PC-darling circus set. But what's interesting is that at the start of this campaign (up to Super Tuesday), blacks were wary of him, not seemlingly because he didn't fit the left-Dem cookie-cutter mold of the so-called 1960s-onward "black leadership," but because they were viewing him the same way other Dems were viewing him, as the underdog with a wariness questioning if he had what it takes to advance, win the nomination, and most important of all, be a serious candidate against whomever-in-the-GOP for the White House itself.

Laying aside the activist idiocy besmirching his campaign, Obama looks sound at this point. And it isn't only black Americans (and all-too-stereotypical activist youth) that have fueled his progress since Super Tuesday.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

DLS — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:33:11 -0000

With respect, JMZ, the opposite of which we've seen methodically from the Obama camp?

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

janinedm — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:20:51 -0000

Well, if you had said at the outset you "don't think 92% of black people vote for Obama just because he's black" it would have completely contradicted the fact that you're "sad that they still feel the need to be tribal, to vote as a bloc."

Of course race is a factor, but I don't know why it's easier to assume that Black people are doing it out of a "need to be tribal." 18-29 years olds go for Obama 75% to Clinton's 25%. What's their defect? Do you see, at a time when the national media will toss off the likelihood of a race riot if the supers were to select Hillary, as if Black people are somehow less rational, why I might be bothered by your statement? Could ya' try my shoes for one second without getting super defensive? I'm not trying to paint you as some sort of evil, Selma-style dogs and hoses jerk, but your (original, not the backtrack) implication isn't very cool. I don't want you to feel weird, but really.

Two, it's not terribly productive to pit one traditionally progressive group against each other in general. In this case it doesn't even do much to score your dubious points. I can think of a ton of reasons to be proud of women in this election that have nothing with being a, what, better and more open minded voter than the Black constituency. Here's one: no one questioned Hillary's ability to be commander in chief. I, for one, won't be voting for her because I believe she could obliterate Iran. Two, the campaign ultimately failed on operations and messaging, not simply because she's a woman.

Finally, I'm glad you feel that sexism is dead or dying or whatever. When I see a discussion on television on whether sometimes calling a woman a "bitch" is accurate, I have to disagree. When I look at the number of public companies with female CEOs, again, I'm going to disagree.

I don't mean to come off as an angry pedant, but your POV is way out there for me. And outside of the occasional Holly from Cincinnati dust up back in Feb/March, I'm rarely "tense" or "angry" and I certainly don't "start out" that way. Yes, I was totally offended, but I tried to address the comment rather than the commenter, so it would be cool if my comment wasn't dismissed as invalid because I'm supposedly being touchy.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:15:27 -0000

Lynx - I don't want to say too much about the black women/white women thing because I am just starting to learn, but there are some great blogs authored by women of color that do address that issue. Visit BlogHer.com and check out some of the posts they have under "race" but also under politics. The best authors to look for would be Kim Pearson, Maria Niles, Morra Aarons. Oh - and there is a great one that was done jointly by a white woman and a black woman - Rita Arons and a blogger whose name I'm forgetting at the moment but she authors a blog called Mocha Mama.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Lynx — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:31:14 -0000

Oy, that's the trouble with these conversations, take one wrong step, and the fighting starts. People start out tense and get angry from there on out. Especially frustrating is the extrapolation that takes place. On another blog I said that some white voters in Kentucky didn't vote for Obama out of racial bias (with numbers in my hand) and the "some" was forgotten in very short order.

Anyway, to the subject at hand. As should be, but sadly isn't, blindingly obvious, I don't think 92% of black people vote for Obama just because he's black. Sorry for not saying that from the outset, but it didn't occur to me someone would suppose that. What I DO think is that Obama being a black man DOES account for the sheer MASSIVE level of his support amongst black voters. Put it this way, I do not think that 92% of black people would be voting for Obama if he were white. Maybe a majority would still be voting for him, but I highly doubt the numbers would be that high. Race isn't the SOLE factor of course! I doubt Condi Rice would have his numbers if she were running, but I think it is a factor.

African Americans understandably would like to see a black president. This is going to sound terrible, but simply put I wish there wasn't an "African American community" because I wish race were irrelevant in our society. I wish no polling were done because it was as relevant as being left or right handed. This is not the case, and I think that in many ways race is more of an issue today than gender is. though I admit I'm a white woman. I suppose you, as a woman of color, would be in a better position to judge that.

I would be interested to know how this election is breaking down amongst women of color, in terms of how many weigh race, how many gender, or both, or none. There aren't a lot of people who vote based on one single thing, be it a physical characteristic or a policy position (within the spectrum of normal policy positions of course) but issues such as gender and race sadly continue to be present, and I think they warrant discussion, as hard as it might be to remain calm throughout.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:00:38 -0000

Jmacmanus, yup. :) I agree. And good for you. I feel the exact same way - don't care how many people tell me "it's unpleasant but it happens." Not gonna happen if I have something to say about it. :)

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

Jill Miller Zimon — Wed, 21 May 2008 15:57:49 -0000

Janinedm - I've been trying to educate myself about WOC and the schism between white feminists and black feminists. I know I'm only at the very beginning, but I've gotten far enough to absolutely accept what you write here. If you haven't heard of it, there's a blog called, Black Women: Blow the Trumpet that had this really interesting post recently about black feminists and white feminists. Anyway - thanks for trying. Maybe we're on overload trying to absorb more than we can at one time, but not hopefully for all time.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

janinedm — Wed, 21 May 2008 15:44:23 -0000

One more thing, why didn't Black people all storm the gates for that whack-a-doodle Alan Keyes? Y'know, since it's skin color and not political ideas that have made us such a loyal and consistent Democratic voting block.

Re: How to approach the +50yo female Clinton Supporters Count Too voters

jmacmanus — Wed, 21 May 2008 14:48:22 -0000

Many years ago - when I first entered college - 1961 - I was playing bridge in the Student Union.

It had just become fashionable for guys to call women bitches - the beginning of the sixties rebellion years, I guess.

In any event, this person, who eventually became one of my best friends. called me a bitch. I threw an entire deck of cards into his face. I then told him that he would never never call me that again. And he didn't.

Seems to me that stands need to be taken - both at the personal level and also at the public level. If sexism is overlooked because it has been around so long - it continues and continues to fester. If two women take small stands - and because of them, four more take small stands and because of them, eight more take small stands and so on and so on - we can change this.