DISQUS

kathykattenburg · 3 months ago

Austin, you just proved me right again, and again I take no pleasure in it. Maybe you should get away from your computer for a while, take a walk, get some fresh air.

JSpencer · 3 months ago

Thanks for sharing Pete. As children, my brothers and I attended Sunday School at our local Methodist church, because my parents attended sermons regularly. I eventually went through confirmation, and then attended for some time after that. I credit the church with having had some degree of positive influence on my moral structure and giving me a good grounding of what christianity is, although I stopped going around the time of the Vietnam War. I also spent time with Mennonites as a child, had Quaker influences as a teen, and then augmented my spiritual quest with some more exotic religious soul scratching in my 20's. Now I'm more one of those (perhaps dreaded and misunderstood) secular humanists - with some partial atheistic impulses, yet I've always had a deep appreciation of the miracles around me for reasons that should be obvious to any sentient life-form. In any case, best of luck with the Methodists; I'm glad your church is active in it's advocacy of what really amounts to a basic interest in human rights. Such matters should be germane to christianity - which is to say, Jesus would likely approve.

AustinRoth · 3 months ago

I am now waiting for Kathy to call out this un-Constitutional mixing of church and state.

But I bet that doesn't happen. And we all know why.

kathykattenburg · 3 months ago

When the U.S. Senate calls in the Methodist church to sit with them in committee and draft legislation to the church's specifications, you let me know, k?

EEllis · 3 months ago

"When the U.S. Senate calls in the Methodist church to sit with them in committee and draft legislation to the church's specifications, you let me know"

When the Methodist church provides 15% of the nations hospital care then they should be invited. In fairness they didn't speak with the "Catholic Church", the Pope didn't show up at the capital. They spoke with representatives from Catholic Charities which run 15% of the Nations health care. Decisions made in the health care bill could directly effect willingness and ability to continue to do so. You don't think it was worth talking to them? Even if it's just to replace them as healthcare providers you have to talk to them anything else would just be stupid.

kathykattenburg · 3 months ago

They spoke with representatives from Catholic Charities which run 15% of the Nations health care. Decisions made in the health care bill could directly effect willingness and ability to continue to do so. You don't think it was worth talking to them?

Are you for real, ellis? Representatives from Catholic Charities may or may not have "spoken with" senators, but that's not what I and others have been talking about here. Catholic Charities didn't help write the legislation, as far as I know. That was the Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Conference of Catholic Bishops, ellis. Leading senators like Ben Nelson and several others (at least several) sat down with representatives from the Conference of Catholic Bishops and wrote the legislation together (the abortion language, that is). If the CCB didn't like the way something was worded, they would say, no can't go with that, and Ben Nelson would say, Oh I'm sorry! How would you like it instead? and he would rewrite it to the bishops' specifications.

And no, I do not think that was appropriate. In fact, I think it's among the most outrageous, egregious violations of church-state separation I've ever heard about.

EEllis · 3 months ago

"And no, I do not think that was appropriate. In fact, I think it's among the most outrageous, egregious violations of church-state separation I've ever heard about."

That's absurd. They provide 15% of the hospital beds in the US. Since you of course think govt should provide all medical that also must be a horrendous violation of church and state, Why do you have this erroneous idea that churches cannot be involved in govt? Some weird delusion that religion should prevent one from speaking a political opinion? It's about the most outrageous, egregious violation of the meanings of the founding fathers I've ever heard of. You twisting their word to what you want. Look the Catholics provide massive amounts of health care in this country. They should be allowed to say if you make us do X then we will quit. That is what it comes down to. That you don't like them saying that, or disagree with their values, mean less than nothing. You would force a devote catholic to give an abortion? How about priests and nuns should they be gaged and forced to participate?

By the way I also believe you have misrepresented the facts. I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe that anyone from the Catholic Church has participated in writing any part of the health bill. Mind you since charities can lobby and lobbyists sometimes draft initial legislation there is nothing directly sinister about it, but I don't believe it happened in this case. Cardinal Daniel DiNardo has been very vocal about lobbying for any legislation to comply with the Hyde amendment. So?

CStanley · 3 months ago

They spoke with representatives from Catholic Charities which run 15% of the Nations health care. Decisions made in the health care bill could directly effect willingness and ability to continue to do so.

Thank you for pointing this out, EEllis.

And in case the discussion takes off into complaints about various churches 'lobbying' in violation of their tax exempt status, people should become familiar with what is meant by the prohibition of 'lobbying.' Reference the definition and explanation here:

Moreover, section 501(c)(3) has long prohibited charities from engaging in political campaign activities. That bar is strict and absolute. A charity may not contribute to a political campaign; endorse a candidate for public office; or support or oppose a political candidat-e in any way, directly or indirectly. Nor may a charity contribute to, organize, manage, or be identi-fied with a Politi-cal Action Commit-tee ("PAC").
{.....}

Consistent with these legal rules requiring charities to operate in the public interest, charities can play critically important roles in the formation of public policy. In provid-ing a vehicle by which individual citizens can come together and express their views on issues of public concern, charities constitute a unique component of our demo-cratic process. In con-trast to business inter-ests, ordi-nary citizens often lack the ability, inclination, or means to partici-pate individually in legislative debates. Thus, when chari-ties bring their members and support-ers into the policy-making process, they provide legislators with citizen-s' views that other-wise would not be expressed. Further, chari-ties often possess data, experience, and exper-tise, gained through hands-on provi-sion of public services, that can provide legislators key ingredients for fully informed exercise of their legislative functions.

What AR was referrring to, albeit in too personal a manner, is that we often see liberal commenters criticizing conservative churches for commenting on policy or attempting to influence their members (usually with an incorrect assessment that this represents inappropriate and/or illegal lobbying) but there's usually an absence of commentary when liberal churches speak out or involve themselves in policy matters that favor the liberal side.

Pete Abel · 3 months ago

Thanks for this extra information, CStanley. Admittedly, I applied the term "lobby" in a very broad sense in the headline, although I think it's a fair use of the term, to say that both Churches have lobbied for their positions. No, they have not directly boosted candidates, but they have weighed in on (lobbied for) key policy issues, which -- as you point out -- is perfectly acceptable.

In fact, if you look back, you should not find any criticism from me re: the Catholic church's recent "issue lobbying." Yes, I remember being bothered by it at the time, but then I thought -- why not? They're promoting their point of view, just like any group does; just like the UMC was doing with Sen. Nelson.

Furthermore, I think we all need to remember that even the First Amendment does not prohibit Church’s from issue lobbying; it prohibits Congress from making laws “respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …” In that context, one could argue that the Catholic and United Methodist Churches have freely exercised their religion in speaking out on policy issues, and it would be counter-Constitutional for Congress to attempt to stop such free exercise.

Net: I have no problem with what the Catholic Church did; I’m only glad the likes of the UMC are doing the same.

CStanley · 3 months ago

Yes, I probably should have been more clear that I didn't think you were being inconsistent in criticizing the Catholic Church for that kind of activity while condoning it from more liberal churches, Pete. I was really referring to other commenters/bloggers who have done so (I think Jazz may have written a post a while ago saying that it was time for churches to lose their charitable tax exemption status because they involve themselves in political issues- and while he also wasn't using a double standard, I do think he was misapplying the principles about lobbying too.)

AustinRoth · 3 months ago

Ah, I just love it when you prove me right.

:-)

kathykattenburg · 3 months ago

That's where we're different, AR. It gives me no joy at all when you prove me right. I wish you'd prove me wrong once in a while.

AustinRoth · 3 months ago

It gives me no joy at all when you prove me right.

HA HA HA HA!

..Are you REALLY that ..?

Of course if gives you no pleasure, not with me or anyone else, because you are too ... to ever admit it when you are wrong, back down and acknowledge it.

You have been proven wrong more times than I can count. You are simply too ...to ever admit it.

It is THE reason I went from having respect for you despite our strong disagreement on many topics to realizing you are ...

archangel · 3 months ago

Commenters: Please stick to the topic of the article, not each other, Thanks,

dr,e

CStanley · 3 months ago

And actually, I just realized that Pete used the word 'lobby' in the title- which again, is incorrect to describe this activity. It is, however, consistent with the law when either conservative or liberal churches give position statements on issues on either side.