The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

GeorgeSorwell — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:44:17 -0000

OMG!!

If Kerry is a pathological liar, what does that make Bush, or Cheney, or Rumsfeld, or--my god, the list is people who misled (or maybe just made mistakes) on Iraq is endless!!!

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

AustinRoth — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:55:34 -0000

Kerry is the one who claimed the Christmas campaign was 'seared, seared' into his memory. He is a pathological liar who will say and manipulate any event to his political advantage.

I actually have respect for those who opposed Vietnam and Iraq on principle, from the beginning, or after what at least can be defended as a true and natural process that changed their viewpoint.

Kerry does not get that benefit of doubt. Since he was in college, everything he did in his life was a planned and staged event to try to become President, not due to any great vision for the country, but just because he wanted to be President.

Other than Nixon, I cannot think of a modern politician less suited to hold higher office than John Kerry.

Enough said. I am not going to change anyone's mind on him, nor is my opinion of him going to change either (outside some incredible new evidence showing his entire life in a new light).

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

GeorgeSorwell — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:59:11 -0000

Austin Roth--

For God's sake!!

Do you really think we ought to consider an opinion piece by a fellow of the right wing American Enterprise Institute solid evidence?

Factually, the worst that can be said of Kerry is that he confused the end of December with the beginning of February.

And did he exaggerate? Sure!

But aren't you also exaggerating, Austin Roth?

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

updem — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:25:28 -0000

Why has no one brought up the obvious before attacking General Clark for his comments. He was making a comment as to McCain's lack of national security policy-making experience. Which he is QUALIFIED to do since he had years of experience at the highest levels of military command. General Clark was completely within his rights to say what he said as he is an expert on the issue. Unlike the people the McCain campaign trotted out to attack him.

McCain is scared that the foundation of his campaign will be exposed as weak. General Clark has never once failed to acknowledge and honor McCain for his service, The man would never dishonor the service of anyone who has worn the uniform. However, as honorable as McCain's service was it did not give him any experience at the executive level, and he has never been involved in defense strategy or policy making. If he is running on the idea that his war service proves that he would be a better Commander in Chief than Barack Obama then we have the duty to examine the relevancy of that service to the duties of the office which he seeks.

Lost in this mess has been the fact that the most decorated General since Eisenhower has had his integrity called in to question by a bunch of political hacks who aren't fit to shine the General's shoes. All as a diversionary tactic to take the focus off of their guys weakness. That is a disgrace that should not go unnoticed.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

AustinRoth — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:05:12 -0000

runi -

There is absolutely no confusion that on Christmas, 1968, he was not in Cambodia, as he stated in writing, on the floor of Congress, and on numerous other occasions.

http://www.washingtonpost.c...

The only reason the press even gives him any benefit of doubt is because they agree with his politics, particularly on the Vietnam and Iraq war.

He also lied about throwing his medals over the White House wall, then tried to use lawyerly weasel words to deny the impression he had left about that incident.

There is so much 'confusion' between what he has stated happened while he served, and what others remember, that given the number of provable lies and misrepresentations in his life, I give him no credence on just about any subject.

He is not, IMO opinion, a 'patriot and war hero', but rather an opportunist, a liar, and a disgrace to the uniform he wore, and wore under false pretenses.

In short, he is scum.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

runasim — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:18:32 -0000

AR-
"Kerry in Cambodia. Need I say more?""
--------

A search reveals only vague evidence AND a lot of political attacks.

The only thing on your side is that Kerry hasn't released his persoanl logs and records. Cosidering how the Swiftboaters have twisted and/or ignored the evidence and testimony that exonerates Kerry, I can't say I blame him .

There is also a lot of confusion about Cambodian/Vietnamese waters, Cambodia.proper, and where the nonexistent border signppsts were. .

I will grant that there is an IF about this one, and only one, allegation, but to jump on board with the Swiftboaters and their political motivation on the bases of an IF is a matter of political choice, not a neutral analysis.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

AustinRoth — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:47:14 -0000

George -

Kerry in Cambodia. Need I say more?

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

runasim — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 14:59:39 -0000

Intresting. Clark is a hatcht man, when is there is no hatchet or hatchet job..

I repeat. McCain can be proud of his war record.
That's one asset he has been touting since forever, and he has every right to.
One asset is not an automatic pass to the WH.

Obama, likewise, has assets He, likewise does not get an automatic pass to the WH. In fact, he is being raked over the coals to get there.

There is nothing sacred about Obama, and there is nothing sacred about McCain.
Welcome to the elections, Lobbing false 'I'm so offneded' pleas will not help McCain. In fact, they fly in the face of the stoic hero image he is trying to project.
A whining stoic hero?

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

DLS — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:45:38 -0000

He's simply a Obama-hired-hack hatchet man who probably is on an inside track to be Obama's Secretary of Defense. (A guy who's been involved during the Clinton years -- so much for "change")

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Dorian — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:22:13 -0000

Marlowecan:

I finally found out who this "Aravosis" is (some blogger at Americablog) in a Leonard Pitts column. And, of course, we condemn his remarks. But the following from the same Pitts columns is relevant to the discussion (And keep in mind, his criticism is not of Clark, but rather of Aravosis and his ilk--Democrat or Republican):

"Indeed, if you were making a movie out of this, you'd call it "Swift Boat II: The Revenge," after the equally bizarre, equally shameful and equally crude 2004 attacks on John Kerry, another senator who was regarded as a war hero.

Kerry was awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for braving enemy fire while wounded to rescue a Special Forces officer. But that heroism was slimed (Kerry was never under fire, they claim) by people working for the re-election of a president who served in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War and a vice president who dodged service altogether. Delegates at the GOP convention even mocked Kerry's wounds, sporting bandages bearing purple hearts.

Some may feel McCain is simply the gander being served a sauce first tasted by the goose. But it seems to me something has gone haywire in a nation that forgets how to revere the service of military men and women, political expediencies and affiliations be damned, a nation where a Max Cleland can leave three limbs in Vietnam yet have his patriotism questioned or a John Murtha can serve as a Marine for 37 years yet be called a coward.

I make no case for sainthood for those or any other military personnel. I make no case that military service exempts you from criticism, however vigorous and sharp. No, the case I make is for simple respect.

We pin flags to our lapels, tack ribbons to our bumpers, and yes, some of us do so in earnestness. But for many of us, I think these are simply props, a means to display what we are supposed to feel, but, as children of a shallow, glittery time, are no longer able to. After all, feeling implies reverence.

And reverence doesn't live here anymore. "

As a footnote, Democratic Senator and war hero, triple amputee Max Cleland certainly wans't "swiftboated" by Democrats! And, remember who "swiftboated" McCain--even before swiftboating became fashionable:

As Rudi says "The origins of the McCain smear predate Kerry and Clark and come from the far Right fringe. A man named Sampley made the same claims about McCain in 2000, and Sampley isn't a Progressive."

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

GeorgeSorwell — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:51:05 -0000

Neocon--

Rudi is correct about the origins of the McCain smears.

Clean up your own house.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

rudi — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:14:02 -0000

This site is the origin of much of the McCain smears, are they progressive?
http://www.vietnamveteransa...

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Neocon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:09:14 -0000

In 2004 John Kerry Stood up on the stage in the Democratic National Convention and Saluted and Said "John Kerry. Reporting for Duty"

George W. Bush was at the time an awol National Guardsmen. They chose to make military service a virtue and it severely backfired on them. Kerry was beaten into the ground with his Swiftboat experience but even more so his actions right after returning from Vietnam.

So 2008 arrives. Barak Obama has no military experience and John McCain is a former Navy pilot, decorated war hero and POW. So what is the logical course to take for the Obama camp.

You got it. Make McCains record go away. Swift boat him out of the water. Turn him into a war criminal. The democrats learned their lessons in 2000 and 2004 and they are out to win at all costs.

Obama has flip flopped on funding so they can get exorbitant amounts of money to not only fuel Obamas run for the presidency but to ensure that there is enough to go around for the rest of the DNC candidates.

The win at all costs, no matter who they have to destroy in the process that they DETESTED and screamed foul over is now their modus operandi. Remember that when you think about voting for a Democrat because you are mad at the GOP.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

rudi — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:05:10 -0000

Komrad Marelow and et al:
The origins of the McCain smear predate Kerry and Clark and come from the far Right fringe. A man named Sampley made the same claims about McCain in 2000, and Sampley isn't a Progressive.
http://www.redpills.org/?p=837
http://www.bartcopnation.co...

Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls.
Tucker Eskew, Bush’s South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not “push polls.” Eskew added, “Show me a baseless comment in those questions.”

Bush Used Fringe Veterans Group to Attack McCain as “Manchurian Candidate.”
“In the case of Ted Sampley, the same guy who did Bush's dirty work in going after Sen. John McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries is doing the job against Kerry this year. Sampley dared compare McCain, who spent five years as a Vietnam POW, with ‘the Manchurian Candidate.’”

Sampley Called McCain a “Coward” and a Traitor.
“Sampley… accused McCain of being a weak-minded coward who had escaped death by collaborating with the enemy. Sampley claimed that McCain had first been compromised by the Vietnamese, then recruited by the Soviets.”

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Neocon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 20:58:00 -0000

I have said what goes around comes around.

They did it to Kerry. Its McCains turn.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

GeorgeSorwell — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:32:00 -0000

Austin Roth--

I'm sure you wouldn't make such a confident assertion about John Kerry if you couldn't back it up.

So where's your evidence?

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

runasim — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:19:16 -0000

Marlowecan,
(1) Hundreds (I believe 200-300) of swift boaters testified that the claims in the attack ads were false. and despicable. Just take note, please.

(2) It's a cheap gimmick to blame Clark for eveything said by someone among the "far left "progressive" sector.
Do you really want to blame McCain for everything said by someone on far-right or even just the near right?

Clark didn't imply treason. He honored McCain's record.
Stick to the aubject, please, because the alternative is a heavy tome of compiled statements by evyone on the Left and the Right. You don't get to choose selective, one-sided, associations--- not in a fair, above-board discussion, anyway..

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

AustinRoth — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:07:41 -0000

One difference, of course, is that despite the attempt to make it seem not so, John Kerry lied, in print and on numerous other occasions, about his service record.

You cannot say that about John McCain.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

GeorgeSorwell — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:31:31 -0000

Marlowecan--

Here is a link to an accusation that Kerry committed treason, among other crimes.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Marlowecan — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:30:15 -0000

I should say, I do respect you guys' views in this regard. I would shrug at most of this with you...except for the "smear" of "disloyalty" to the US levelled against McCain recently.

I don't care much about most other smears (except those using Obama's kids to attack him, you may recall, which were out of bounds in my view).

The implication of treason is, in political discourse, appalling. The Progressive Left has levelled this against McCain...just as against Petraeus ("Betray-us")...and Rover ("outting a CIA agent in a time of war is an act of treason").

Senator Obama, to his credit, disassociated himself from anyone smearing the patriotism of a candidate. Alas, many on the Progressive Left seem not to have gotten the memo.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Marlowecan — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:15:16 -0000

Jim...just because the Swiftboaters were successful in getting their smears out to the public...while the Progressives smearing McCain have not "YET" been as successful...does not make the smears any different.

The "Swiftboaters" were tangentially connected to the Bush campaign, in the same way as Rockefeller, Clark, and the Left Bloggers are tangentially connected to Obama.

Cut-outs to preserve deniability.

Look, Democrats know McCain's "hero" narrative must be undermined. This has been occurring across the board by Progressive and Democratic Pols. Much as the GOP knew Kerry's service had to be undermined to support Bush "lack of service"

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Marlowecan — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:10:15 -0000

Jim Satterfield said: "They lied, they misrepresented, they twisted and they had big bucks behind them pushing their tales out to the public. The same is not true of any of the incidents you cite..."

So Aravosis is telling the truth when he accuses McCain of "disloyalty" to the United States as a POW?

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Marlowecan — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:08:37 -0000

GeorgeSorwell said: "As for the term "swiftboating", I remember all kinds of nonsense about Kerry...a whole avalanche of BS about Kerry's distinguished wartime service in the US Navy. Which side is truly eager to denigrate honorable military service to achieve the goal of political power?"

GeorgeSorwell, was Kerry ever accused of "disloyalty" in supporting the North Vietnamese? Aravosis made exactly that smear of McCain in the past week.

You may say "Who is Aravosis?" I also cited Sen. Rockefeller's smear of McCain...for which he apologized, having realized he smeared the entire US Air Force in the process.

Yes, "which side is truly eager to denigrate honorable military service to achieve the goal of political power".

You ask a good question. I ask you: Did the Swiftboaters accuse Kerry of treason? Progressive make that accusation of McCain!

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

Jim_Satterfield — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:06:18 -0000

Sorry, Marlowecan, you're exaggerating for partisan political effect in your post. How many members of the general public are aware of the incidents you describe? Darn few. I follow the news more closely than most and have only heard second hand accounts from conservatives such as yourself. But the swiftboaters were an entirely different kettle of fish. They lied, they misrepresented, they twisted and they had big bucks behind them pushing their tales out to the public. The same is not true of any of the incidents you cite and there has been no effort to change that on the part of the DNC, Obama's campaign or anyone associated with them. Your claims of a sustained campaign of some kind similar to the Swift Boater's just doesn't fly.

Re: Is General Wesley Clark a “Swiftboater”?

GeorgeSorwell — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:56:11 -0000

Objectively, Clark is correct. There's nothing about getting shot down that qualifies anyone to be President.

The way he made that point, however, was kind of dumb.

As for the term "swiftboating", I remember all kinds of nonsense about Kerry shooting himself, about how his military decorations were invalid, a whole avalanche of BS about Kerry's distinguished wartime service in the US Navy.

Which side is truly eager to denigrate honorable military service to achieve the goal of political power?