The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

StockBoySF — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:03:13 -0000

CStanley, sorry didn't reply yesterday on this...

You wrote, "Stockboy- you write of concern about how McCain speaks, in that he's firmly rooted in certain positions like the prolife position. Yet when you look at each man's record, Obama is the one who is more extreme on abortion..."

On the issue of abortion Obama's pro-choice position leaves the decision on whether or not to have an abortion in the hands of the woman, doctor, pastro, family, etc. McCain's position would make abortion illegal, giving no one a choice. When abortion is illegal the rich will fly off to other countries to have it done and the poor will use coat hangers, putting their own lives at risk.

I've posted on here several times before that I'm pro-life, but the decision should be in the hands of the woman. I think any abortion is wrong, but the decision isn't mine to make for anyone else.

You also said, "If the actions of the men don't match the rhetoric, in terms of how willing they are to compromise, then why do you trust the words instead of the deeds?" Again, with regards to abortion, Obama supports pro-choice. He isn't forcing anyone to actually have an abortion who doesn't want it. i think that's compromise. Just like the right to guns.... he has reached out his hand to have a dialogue with the pro-gun people. Obama knows that if he wants to keep military weapons out of the hands of criminals he will need bipartisan support because many lawmakers will not want anything to do with passing legislation restricting guns to criminals....

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

CStanley — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:53:43 -0000

What about them, Rudi? Do you have any evidence that Obama compromised with any of the more conservative legislators on any issue?

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

jchem — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:40:16 -0000

"at least a Republican of some kind, at least nominal (RINO), will be in the White House rather than a Democrat."

Somehow DLS, I doubt this would fly with roughly 70% (or more) of the country who feel that we're on the wrong track.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

pacatrue — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:39:56 -0000

DLS said, "There is nothing wrong with correct use of the word "elitist"; discomfort here as elsewhere on the Left is correctly due to its being used correctly, more closely than the lefties would like."

Actually, I disagree. Elitist is being used entirely as a personal smear here. There's no evidence that Obama doesn't understand what goes on in everyday life. There's no evidence that he is particularly inept at knowing many of their troubles. There's no evidence that he doesn't care about others. Just like McCain, he's spent the last 20 years in various legislative venues, typically designing programs to help those people he supposedly doesn't understand. Elitist is being used as a cultural attack. Let's pretend he eats the wrong foods, lives in the wrong cities, doesn't watch the right sports.... I know someone's going to pull out the "clinging" line, but that is not evidence of much of anything. If you take one sentence out of the man's entire life, it sounds oh so meaningful and revealing. But you then have to disregard everything else about the man to make it work. It's only revealing if you already believe what it's supposed to reveal. It's the same thing people were doing with the Palin/Trig pregnancy rumor: pull out 2 or 3 facts and ignore all the others or squeeze and push them to make it fit your favorite story.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

rudi — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:30:50 -0000

CS - You say Obama only dealt with Chicago politician at the Illinios state house. What about Peroria, Springfield, Decatur and Urbana? While a majority of the urban areas may be Democrats, the rural south of the stat isn't so.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

pacatrue — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:21:51 -0000

I can't argue with you, CStanley, on the exact details of his record. I wish I could and it's a fault that I don't know it in great detail. (Part of the reason is that Obama was not necessarily my favorite choice, but instead the best of who I had left.) My comment is mostly based on the notion that I think at heart Obama is a policy wonk. He's just a wonk who gives good speeches and has some vision. But in the end, what he would like to do is sit down with a bunch of people and design cool programs to help people. I actually like this overall, but it could limit him, because he might always think of a new cool program to solve a problem. But sometimes the govt isn't the one who should be involved at all.

Anyway, despite my botching the experience goal thing earlier, I hope the point is clear. Experience is like a a high quality engine pulling a train. Its function is to get you somewhere. If my hopes for the nation are represented by Georgia on a map, then McCain's headed toward Texas. No matter how excellent the train is, that's not where I wanted to go.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

DLS — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:18:35 -0000

"McCain's willingness to say that he would bring Democrats and Independents into his administration. The crowd didn't seem too thrilled by that"

Remember that the GOP has been dysfunctional and is on the defensive this year. Many conservatives and Republicans don't like "Juan McCain's" amnesty moves, no more than McCain's defiance of conservatives and the GOP on certain issues from time to time (or just limelight seeking, which may have paid off at least to the point of nomination for GOP Presidential candidate as of this week). McCain has never been a very appealing candidate and I consider him still to be dull and weak (I had no idea how well or poorly he would have spoken last night; he did surprisingly well). The audience was _surprisingly_ united -- to me last night this was union at a surreal level. All the dissension and controversy frequently associated with McCain was absent -- deliberate denial, for the election's sake. It's perfectly understandable: at least a Republican of some kind, at least nominal (RINO), will be in the White House rather than a Democrat. That, and of course the Palin popularity that really has revitalized the party this week, is what is at issue.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

DLS — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:12:37 -0000

There is nothing wrong with correct use of the word "elitist"; discomfort here as elsewhere on the Left is correctly due to its being used correctly, more closely than the lefties would like.

McCain gave a good speech. (There was no guarantee of this and we didn't know what to expect.) He successfully ended the convention on a high note, boosting the GOP's momentum, and now we have to wait a week or longer to see the afterglow subside (and the idiocy from the Left such as I already heard on the Stephanie Miller show this morning, and have seen in more demented post-speech postings on this site, for example) subside and interest in McCain-Palin be "rebalanced" at a new natural level with respect to Obama-Biden (interest in which will now resume).

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

CStanley — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:47:49 -0000

Paca- I don't actually disagree with you much on the bipartisan concept of combining approaches that come from right and left. I do think that it's not always possible because sometimes the two approaches are mutually exclusive- but where a blend is possible, it should be done, if the sum of the parts can be reasonably assumed to produce positive results.

What I disagree with you on is the extent to which Obama will do that on hard issues. I have seen some people cite evidence of his early experience in the state legislature, where he was able to develop some consensus among people who'd previously disagreed. But those local issues generally aren't ideological- plus, there really isn't much of a conservative contingency in Chicago so you're basically talking about compromise between the far left and the moderate left, or different factions of the Democratic party (I see that situation as the mirror image of GWB in Texas, working with moderate Democrats- and we all know how that worked out when he got to DC.) I haven't really seen any evidence of Obama reaching across the aisle to Republicans, except where it was the Republicans who were breaking with their own party.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

jchem — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:45:02 -0000

What I found interesting was McCain's willingness to say that he would bring Democrats and Independents into his administration. The crowd didn't seem too thrilled by that. On my way to work this morning I listened to NPR interviewing some delegates who said they didn't like that either. I'm a bit uncertain if this is something that McCain really feels that he can accomplish. He may well want to have somewhat of a bipartisan admin, but I honestly don't think the powers that be in his party would go for it. I get the impression that his party has more influence on him than he would like. He wanted Lieberman, but that almost led to a revolt, so he caved and settled for someone who certainly excited the base.

On a side note, what point was made by the crowd going through their "USA" chants whenever protestors appeared?

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

Manchester2 — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:43:01 -0000

The news that came out of the GOP convention can be summarized in one line:

CONSERVATIVES FIRED UP

And that renewed zeal has one cause: Sarah Palin. While we're at it, don't think for one minute that the images of Palin family solidarity, even through personal crises, won't resonate with the average voter.

As for McCain, expect more of the "We blew it, but we will change" rhetoric. It's endearing, and appeals to most people's inclination to give others a second chance.

Bottom line? Americans understand that having both the legislative and the executive under one party's control is not in the nation's best interest, period. It's too strong a temptation to corruption for the party that controls both the legislative and executive levers of power.

I wonder how history might have been different if the Dems controlled Congress in 2000 and President Bush had been forced to work with them in the same way he'd worked with the Democratically controlled legislature in Texas?

As for Bob Barr: Yikes! No thanks, T_Steel.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

pacatrue — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:24:28 -0000

Hi, CStanley, you are right in your re-phrasing of the goals for war mongering. : ) I disagree so strongly with his views on the justification for the Iraq invasion that I tried to finagle it into my rhetoric. You are correct there. And, yes, I'm sure 80% is the wrong number. I was trying to show a majority disagreement but with some agreement. I'll go with 65% if needed. 58%?

We will have to agree to disagree on bipartisanship, it sounds like. What you view as a sham, I view as the best way to govern. Very likely I expressed it poorly since your last paragraph talks about the problem of taking credit. What I have in mind is working with people who have all sorts of ideas to find the best plan to accomplish goals. What if he were to work on education reform and ideas of vouchers came up as well as, say, programs to reduce classroom size and a graduation retention program which are federally funded. What happens today is that Republicans scream, "Vouchers!" and Democrats scream "No, increase funding!" And they scream and nothing ever happens. The only thing they can take credit for is stopping the bad guy from implementing their horrible plan. The children of course then receive no help.

A decent idea to get around nothing happening would be to pilot models of each program in different places for two years and re-assess. Would that be a sham and co-opting others ideas or would that be seeking common ground to get something done? I choose the latter.

A different idea I did a guest post on a year or two ago was about fighting poverty by combining tax incentive ideas, which at least once were the primary method that Republicans offered, with things like educational assistance and increase community policing, which Dems often favor. Instead of debating which of these is the best, forever, try using both, but use them for a limited area... Again, is that stealing or finding solutions? (Of course, that particular idea may be lousy; the point is to implement the best ideas you can find no matter which party came up with them.)

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

T-Steel — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:36:55 -0000

Personally I liked McCain's speech much more than Palin's. See here's my issue: I've decided to not vote "third party protest" this presidential election. Obama's and McCain's speeches made me respect and like them more. Of course, I have strong positive feelings towards Obama because I'm black and the history that has and continues to be made. BUT I have to be honest, McCain's speech swayed me more than I thought it would. I like how classy he was towards Obama while laying out Obama's weaknesses without being all strident about it like Palin was (and "strident" is a unisex word friends). Now If we could really have some good debates and town halls between now and November (BOB BARR FOR THE DEBATES)...

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

CStanley — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:30:36 -0000

And paca, it's McCain who supports a broader range of alternative energy sources, since his plan includes the building of new nuclear plants. You could certainly argue that Obama has a more specific plan for largescale investment in certain alternative fuel sources, but McCain's views on energy are actually broader.

On the styles of bipartisanship, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. What you praise in Obama's style is a sham as far as I'm concerned- that's not compromise, that's coapting the good ideas of the other party as long as they're compatible with your own party's plans, and then claiming credit for them (of course, Obama has a record of that, too, as when he steps in before a news conference and claims that he worked on a bipartisan bill when he really had little to do with it.)

I felt that McCain made an excellent point last night- that the politicians in Washington need to stop worrying about who gets credit for solving problems, and just focus on getting the job done. I believe his record indicates that he really means it, too.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

CStanley — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:26:01 -0000

I disagree with 80% of McCain's goals

Seriously? I find that hard to believe. I'm quite conservative and disagree with a lot of Obama's plans, but I wouldn't even put my level of discordance with him nearly that high.

Of course, when I see that you are then attributing things to McCain as his 'goals' which are nonsensical (he has the 'goal' of warmongering and black and white foreign relations? That's absurd) then I guess I can see why you are putting your disagreement level so high. I think it would be far more accurate to say that you believe that his approach will result in certain negative things, rather than to say that you disagree with his goals. For instance, I agree with McCain's assessment that some of Obama's plans will lead to loss of jobs- but I certainly wouldn't say that Obama has the goal of increasing unemployment!

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

pacatrue — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:20:19 -0000

It's been discussed a million times, but why not one more. Obama and McCain have very different approaches to bipartisanship, both of which have merits. McCain has particular issues he cares about and when they don't match his own party, he will periodically reach across the aisle, fighting to get his own idea implemented. Obama's going to generally advocate "liberal" positions, but he's practically oriented at accomplishing them. If his goal is to expand health care, he will consider ideas for doing so from across the aisle, though the goal will remain a "liberal" one of expanding health care coverage. If he wants to expand solar thermal energy and needs to do offshore drilling to make the deal, he will make the deal. One model of bipartisanship is searching for people to get your ideas implemented (McCain); the other is compromise and pragmatism to get mostly liberal ideas implemented (Obama).

At least that's my take on the two men. It's got problems. For instance, Obama's interest in faith-based programs is McCain-esque in that it's not a typical Democratic position right now.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

pacatrue — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:07:57 -0000

Leo said: I quote McCain's speech to show you he understands this Obama shortcoming:

"I don't mind a good fight. For reasons known only to God, I've had quite a few tough ones in my life. But I learned an important lesson along the way: In the end, it matters less that you can fight. What you fight for is the real test."

He is right and this is exactly why I cannot vote for McCain. I value experience, but the usefulness of experience is how it helps you reach your goals. Unfortunately, I disagree with 80% of McCain's goals, and so his experience only helps make things worse (in my opinion). So, yes, the real test is in what you fight for. McCain has been displaying far too much interest in goals of war mongering, black and white foreign relations, supporting same sex marriage amendments, limited interest in alternative energy, and much more.

By the way, eltitist, snob, and arrogant are simple name calling, based upon nothing, other than some random personal dislike. But have at it. That way I can copy that up next time you get angry at someone else name-calling McCain or Palin. ("Oh, but it's a simple fact that he's a snob because I heard he may or may not like arugula lettuce. And you can see it on his face." Sigh.)

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

CStanley — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:03:18 -0000

Stockboy- you write of concern about how McCain speaks, in that he's firmly rooted in certain positions like the prolife position. Yet when you look at each man's record, Obama is the one who is more extreme on abortion (his legislative record is to the left of most of his own party, having shown more concern for protecting a woman's right to choose abortion in all cases than he even had for the life of babies who are actually born when abortions fail.) If the actions of the men don't match the rhetoric, in terms of how willing they are to compromise, then why do you trust the words instead of the deeds?

Obama's only record on bipartisanship involves some issues on which most people agree; as McCain said last night, he has the scars from real bipartisan fights, when he's bucked his own party on issues to do what he felt was right.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

CStanley — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:28:43 -0000

elrod: suddenly divided government has no value in your estimation? The hugely unpopular current Congress isn't part of the problem? And if it is, you see no reason that people would want to put someone of the opposition party in, who is amenable to some moderately progressive agenda items, but is vowing to fight corruption?

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

Leonidas — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:10:48 -0000

Elrod,
Since you object to the word "elitist" being overused try "snob" instead, if that doesn't work for you try "arrogant".

As for wanting a president to lead, sure but if he leads us the wrong way it doesn't do much good, George Bush proved that, he was another man who wanted to lead the country instead of to serve it. Obama has that same arrogance.

I quote McCain's speech to show you he understands this Obama shortcoming:

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

pacatrue — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 03:30:52 -0000

Hey, I get to agree with Leo for a change. My impression was also that Palin has liberated McCain a little bit. When it was just him, he was attempting to be both a centrist and a conservative. With Palin making conservatives salivate, he can concentrate just on the first part.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

elrod — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 02:51:37 -0000

Yeah, I suppose I should have watched it. I actually find his mannerisms a bit uncomfortable up there. I don't mind hearing him speak in an interview setting though.

It is so disjointed overall. Running on change...when you're own party is in power? Well then how? The policy was GOP boilerplate, based on the text. If it's all about supporting Democratic plans, then why should we elect you and not a real Democrat?

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

StockBoySF — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:42:31 -0000

elrod, too bad you didn't stick around to watch it. I have to admit I actually dozed the first 10 or 15 minutes. I think it WAS the green background that did it. When I finally came back to my senses there was a blue background (and sometimes a flag waving on the screen... I couldn't help but ask myself if the GOP was too cheap to buy an actual flag and put it on the stage). At any rate, I would have found your comments on it to be interesting, as I always do.

The rest of the speech was better and I was actually shouting at the TV at certain times (I guess by "better" I mean the rest of the speech definitely had my attention). I think the speech did what was necessary- for McCain to fire up the base.

Going back to my shouting at the TV bit..... I did that when McCain was talking about "government doesn't make choices for you, it works to make sure you it stays out of your life"..... As I've posted on here before, I strongly believe the government SHOULD stay out of the people's lives and let us make our own decisions. Yet I can't help but think of all the pandering politicians, including McCain, who will turn one American against another (I'm thinking of Terry Schiavo, constitutional bans to limit certain people's rights, pro-life, etc.) for political gain. McCain's meddling in my personal life (not directly, but the policies he supports) is what gets to me and what makes me so angry at his hypocrisy. His words sound great, it's what we all believe, but they only work with McCain presidency if you actually have the same values and beliefs that McCain has.

I also couldn't help but think that McCain is a man of war.... He talked about his military service. He also talked about knowing how the military works and how to stand up to our enemies (all in the same passage and in context to Russia invading Georgia). He was scary.

The end of the speech, also inspiring to the entire audience in the auditorium and many viewers, I'm sure I thought was scary... again because he his words ring so hollow to me. They sounded great but his positions and what he wants to fight for is not what I want.

I may not agree with everything Obama says, but at least Obama wants to compromise so we can work together. As Obama said in one of his speeches (paraphrasing), "We may not agree on the second amendment to the US Constitution, but surely we can agree to keep military guns out of the hands of criminals." And such other statements by Obama really make me like him. McCain, by contrast (at Warren's Faith Forum) thundered "I'm pro-life and I'll be a pro-life president". Again paraphrasing but that's what he said. Such hardline positions (and all of McCain's positions seem to be hardline) do not allow for discussion on the issue. McCain wants what he wants and he knows how to fight to achieve victory.

So while McCain claims he "fights for Americans" (he said that tonight) what he really means is that he fights for Americans who believe in the same things he does.

So that's what I fins so scary about McCain... his hardline positions that he wants to win without discussion... he claims he wants to change Washington, but if he will only accept things his way and not allow compromise, then he can't bring change. He seems to think that there is a "one size fits all" approach to life.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

Rambie — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:23:23 -0000

It was a good speech and did sound like the McCain of 2000 more than the McCain of today. The problem is it was such a disconnect from the last two nights of the convention that I have a hard time believing that McCain can make the changes he talked about.

Re: McCain Reaches Out To Center In Acceptance Speech

elrod — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:19:53 -0000

Leonidas,
The word "elitist" is the most tired and abused word in our political vocabulary. It's vintage Nixonland and it always carried a tone of anti-Semitism; anti-intellectuals used to gripe about Jewish elitists, but after the 1950s dropped the "Jewish" part while keeping the image intact.

Oh, and don't we want a President to lead?