The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Notes From a Black Pastor

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

domajot — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:16:57 -0000

Creole,
As I see it, your reaction exemplifies exactly why we make a serious error when we judge a person by the church he atttends.

The church in question does not represent a unified social/cultural position.
It's a community spanning generations. Wright does, indeed, represent the angry generation, who replaced the uncle Tom generation, who replaced slaves.

To undersant the church, we need to understand the basics of how the black community has evolved and is evolving still.

Obama is of the newest genration, who embrace ideas suitable to today's world.
They have the liuxury of not needing to be angry anymore in order to succeed and achieve progress for the community.

Let me ask you this: Should the descendants of slave owners be required to disown theri forbears because they, in today's world,, find slavery offensive?
Should we condemsn Lincoln because he didn't put an end to salvery forcefully enough or too forcefully.

That's the kind of, out of contxet, judgment you are making about Obama's membership in a church that has a long hsitory and a multi-genrational membership/ I watched a service in Obama's church on C-Span. There was a rather boring sermon, and it ended with everyone singing the 'black and while together' verse to We Shall Overcome. How radical or controversial is that?

All churches are evolving. The Episcopalians are fighting over the women as priests issue. Evangelicals are truning their attention to the environment. As far as I know, few are not throwing ou the protraits of past leaders with whom they have tcome o disagree. They just evolve with the times and define their own relationship to their church.

Why on earth are the requirements different for Obama?
What we need to know is what Obama believes, not what every black preacher of past generations has ever preached, in this church or in any church.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

Creole — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:31:30 -0000

domajot,

I'm afraid your analysis does not apply in this instance (where it often does, e.g., in white, often secular, churches). This is not "trivia" about Obama, nor are the indicators "superficial." Your comments indicate to me that you are not familiar with churches like the TUCC or pastors like Rev Wright. I am, they are prevalent where I lived for most of my life.

The TUCC espouses a "black values system" that is based on 70's far-left black nationalism. It is called Black Liberation Theology. It is a fusion of religion with politics, the former driving the latter. The two are inseparable and inter-twined. The mission is one of activist social change; the message is one of virulent racism, anti-white (and anti-middle class black), anti-Americanism, conspiracy theory, paranoia, and the politics of grievance and victimization. One only need become a bit familiar with a Rev Wright or devotees to see how much this drives their behavior, politics, and world view.

Obama is very closely associated with this value and belief system. While I believe him when he says that he doesn't agree with Wright's most extreme and noxious views, it is to be expected that the theology does influence his politics, and in fact, Obama acknowledges that. I doubt that you would be as dismissive of a candidate who is as active as Obama is in TUCC and has as close a religious and political association to Wright as Obama does, if that candidate were the same but with a Pat Robertson or a Jerry Falwell. And you would be right. I think if you take a close look at Obama's political philosophy and positions, you will find elements of his church's religious social activism to be drivers.

You rightly comment on the importance of a person's character. Knowing what I do about Wright and his ilk (like Farrakhan), I find it very difficult to reconcile Obama's character as presented, with Wright's. And again, this is not a passing or casual relationship. Nor one where politics is separate from religion. And Obama is not twiddling hours away in the pew. He is energetically active, he generously contributes financially, he seeks Wright's counsel before making important political decisions. And by the way, in his book he makes reference to some of Wright's incendiary sermons as having been influential to him.

What goes further to your character point is that Obama has attempted, dishonestly and disingenuously, to persuade voters that there is nothing controversial about his church or Rev Wright. One only need to back-track over his answers to questions in this vein, and especially look at the language used, to see this.

I honestly regret the above were not the case. I voted for Obama in the primary - shame on me for not doing my homework. I'll not repeat that mistake.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

domajot — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:33:00 -0000

Idio,

While religion and other associations might be good to know, our obsession with the trivia of a candidate's life, obscures what we really need to know: what is this person's character and what are his qualifications. It's taking superficial indicators and raising them to the level of iffefutable evidence of this or that, and everyone filles in thir own blanks as to what the evidence acutally proves.

What does church attendance mean anyway? It means that someone sat in a church for X number of hours. Whether a person actually listened to the sermons or slept through them or took away a twisted message tfrom them all that might be actually important still remains unknown The trivial pursuit game distracts from what's ireally mportant and opens the door to endless apeculation, insinuation, and political arguments about nothing.of substance.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

GeorgeSorwell — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:46:58 -0000

The return of Mormon-bashing!

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

Idiosyncrat — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:40:19 -0000

domajot: "The obsession with churches and religions really has to stop someitme. We're still recovering from the uproar about Mormonism. In the end, what did it have to do with Romney, the presidential candidate?"

Lots. Same goes with Obama. The ideologies you cling to, the people you actively choose to associate with, the advisors and mentors you choose, the organizations you are active in... These are also important reflections on who a person is and the kinds of choices he or she makes.

Whether it takes the form of a religious or something else is of little concern to me. A deal breaker? Not necessarily. But it's just another data point to consider... And in this case, it's not a particularly flattering one.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

stephen1947 — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:05:33 -0000

Everyone who's denouncing Rev. Wright based on this compilation of clips assumes that this is all that he's been saying for the past 20 years - some are quick to leap to assumption because this confirms in some way what they want to believe, others because they live in a climate of constant fear and don't know any better. Whatever. But to build an argument based on assumptions you haven't actually done anything to verify shows me that I don't really have to pay as much attention to what you say as I would to someone who was actually demonstrating thoughtfulness.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

domajot — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 02:34:26 -0000

Macan cited to these word:s "My problem with the "God damn America" mentality is not just that it is anti-American; it is profoundly un-Christian."

Please, let's not resort to using those old political clubs again.. They are being worn out to the point of being useless, if not always as laughabel as many find them.

As Obama has stated, and I agree with him, Rev. Wright has been extreme in his statements. Like Dennis said, he has gone way over the top.

What being anti-American or anti-Christian precisely means, however, is not clear in the least. the number of definitions are myriad.
Too many use these kind of characterizations about anyone who disagrees with them either about politics or theology. This practice dimishes both the inherent value of patriotism and Christianity. When used as political tools, It cheapens both condepts.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

domajot — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 02:09:57 -0000

Whocares adked:
"What kind of achurch is this?"

The obsession with churches and religions really has to stop someitme. We're still recovering from the uproar about Mormonism. In the end, what did it have to do with Romney, the presidential candidate? Inspite of the extreme secrecy of the Mormons about their ceremonies and practices, we cama to accept Romney at this word, and no one was damaged as a result.

In Obama's case, his church is more open, so we know about Rev. Wright and we know what Obama's contrasting beliefs are, so there is much less guesswork involved. We're actually ahead of the game, when compared to other leaders.

This has got to stop, or we'll end up obsessing about every public figure's religion. .
What about the revered Rev. Billy Graham's influential relationship with many of our Presidents? He was a self-acknowledged anti-semite for most of his life.
How does that change the legacy of Pres. Bush?

Do we really need to re-examine the vaious religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers? They were far from inified in the area of religion but still managed to produce the Constitution. together.

This just has to stop if we are to retain a modicum of logic in the process of choosing Preidential candidates and, eventually, Presidents.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

duog — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:52:00 -0000

I'm a retired caucasian Canadian. I truly seems to me that the USA can't let a new and inspiring younger leader play the game unless he survives a multimedia whipping.
Barack Obama has already improved the reputation of the USA abroad. We're all watching to see if America has matured into the nation the founding fathers dreamed about (minus the brutal slavery of course).

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

GeorgeSorwell — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:13:45 -0000

Of course this will be all over the Republican TV commercials.

Republicans can't run on how well they've managed the war.

Republicans can't run on how well they've managed the economy.

Republicans can't run on how well they've managed health care.

So they'll attack what his Christian minister said. Even as they're running a whispering campaign that he's a secret Muslim.

And there will always be apologists for this.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

Macan — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:53:22 -0000

Dennis, thank you for the link to Booker Rising. I thought the comment in response to Shay was interesting:

"My problem with the "God damn America" mentality is not just that it is anti-American; it is profoundly un-Christian. Even if Senator Obama chose to ignore the politics of Rev. Wright's sermons (or if, as the Senator seems be claiming, he did not see them as particularly political to begin with), the spiritual poison from Trinity United's leader should have been self-evident (as it was to your Grandma), and reason enough to find another church at which to worship."

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

Macan — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:43:34 -0000

Obama has been attending this church, and has known this pastor, for over twenty years...and only NOW is he aware of Wright's history of anti-Semitic, anti-American rhetoric?

Much like Obama had been Tony Rezko's friend for years, and took his money, even bought real estate with him...without ever picking up a newspaper to read of Rezko's shady dealings (that the Chicago press have covered for years)...and only NOW is he aware of these troublesome stories.

Poor Senator Obama...how many more times in the campaign will he be profess to be "Shocked, Shocked" by what was going on all around him for years?

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

Whocares — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:46:46 -0000

What type of church is this?

Barak Obama supported this church and its teachings for years and years by his continued presence and work for this church and its congregation.

That should say it all.

Re: Notes From a Black Pastor

elrod — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:41:45 -0000

Dennis,
Obama forcefully denounced Wright this afternoon. What are your thoughts on it? The denunciation, in full is here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.c...

He's going on TV to talk about tonight - including on Sean Hannity's show.