The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

D. E.Rodriguez — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 00:36:44 -0000

Westbeach80:

"...the fact remains that most Canadians are satisfied with the health care system. 85.2%
of Canadians reported that they were "satisified" or "very satisfied" with
the way health care services are provided in their country and an even
higher number (89.8%) rated their physician in the same way though slightly
lower ratings were awarded to hospitals (79.9% being "satisified" or "very
satisfied")."

I have seen similar figures elsewhere. They are also pretty good in England and other European countries. And, guess, what, they are lower in the US

Thanks

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

Dorian — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:36:44 -0000

Westbeach80:

"...the fact remains that most Canadians are satisfied with the health care system. 85.2%
of Canadians reported that they were "satisified" or "very satisfied" with
the way health care services are provided in their country and an even
higher number (89.8%) rated their physician in the same way though slightly
lower ratings were awarded to hospitals (79.9% being "satisified" or "very
satisfied")."

I have seen similar figures elsewhere. They are also pretty good in England and other European countries. And, guess, what, they are lower in the US

Thanks

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

westbeach80 — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:16:05 -0000

Definitely, there are weaknesses to the universal health care system like
longer wait times; losing talented doctors to private sector (a number of
Canadian doctors are heading to the US because of better wages); not enough
beds; and less equipment available like MRIs. The great thing about
privatized health care is that if Americans have the money, they will get
the best treatment. The problem is those who cannot afford insurance and who
don&#39t get treatment. I hear stories in the US where patients are denied
service at one hospital because they won&#39t accept their insurance and they
have to drive to another hospital. That to me is just crazy.

"Despite these stories emanating from the press and pressure groups (mostly
from the US) about the weakness of the universal health care, the fact
remains that most Canadians are satisfied with the health care system. 85.2%
of Canadians reported that they were "satisified" or "very satisfied" with
the way health care services are provided in their country and an even
higher number (89.8%) rated their physician in the same way though slightly
lower ratings were awarded to hospitals (79.9% being "satisified" or "very
satisfied")." (Source: "Healthy Canadians: Canadian government report on
comparable health care indicators<http://www.healthcoalition....
". http://www.healthcoalition.ca/index-eng.pdf.)

I believe the benefits of having universal health care outweigh the costs.
Universal health care is socialized health care and to many Americans that
scares them that the government would be in control. Socialism just does not
go right with the Republicans, but the Democrats lean to the left and are
open to ideas. Obama&#39s plan scares Americans because they feel he will
cripple America&#39s health care when in fact the system is already crippled in
not being able to provide health care to all citizens regardless of one&#39s
income.

Many Americans are buying prescription drugs from Canadian distributors,
either over the Internet or traveling there to buy them in person, because
cost is substantially lower than they would pay in the US. Cross-border
purchasing has been estimated at $1 billion annually.

I believe some government control is better for a country in certain sectors
and not just free enterprise. All you need to look at is what happened with
America&#39s banks (mortgages handed out like free candy). There are thousands
of banks in the US with little to no regulation, and now look at where the
current state of the US economy is in. I&#39m not being biased about how great
Canada is, but I do believe in some form of socialism. Canada has less than
100 banks that are fully regulated and have been a model to countries around
the world. Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister of Canada, was asked by
journalists from other countries how did Canada&#39s banks stay healthy and
make profits. He responded that government regulation was key to making sure
banks don&#39t take major risks. Canada is in a recession, but not as badly as
many countries around the world.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

westbeach80 — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:16:05 -0000

"Despite these stories emanating from the press and pressure groups (mostly
from the US) about the weakness of the universal health care, the fact
remains that most Canadians are satisfied with the health care system. 85.2%
of Canadians reported that they were "satisified" or "very satisfied" with
the way health care services are provided in their country and an even
higher number (89.8%) rated their physician in the same way though slightly
lower ratings were awarded to hospitals (79.9% being "satisified" or "very
satisfied")." (Source: "Healthy Canadians: Canadian government report on
comparable health care indicators<http: www.healthcoalition.ca="" index-eng.pdf="">
". http://www.healthcoalition....

I believe the benefits of having universal health care outweigh the costs.
Universal health care is socialized health care and to many Americans that
scares them that the government would be in control. Socialism just does not
go right with the Republicans, but the Democrats lean to the left and are
open to ideas. Obama's plan scares Americans because they feel he will
cripple America's health care when in fact the system is already crippled in
not being able to provide health care to all citizens regardless of one's
income.

Many Americans are buying prescription drugs from Canadian distributors,
either over the Internet or traveling there to buy them in person, because
cost is substantially lower than they would pay in the US. Cross-border
purchasing has been estimated at $1 billion annually.

I believe some government control is better for a country in certain sectors
and not just free enterprise. All you need to look at is what happened with
America's banks (mortgages handed out like free candy). There are thousands
of banks in the US with little to no regulation, and now look at where the
current state of the US economy is in. I'm not being biased about how great
Canada is, but I do believe in some form of socialism. Canada has less than
100 banks that are fully regulated and have been a model to countries around
the world. Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister of Canada, was asked by
journalists from other countries how did Canada's banks stay healthy and
make profits. He responded that government regulation was key to making sure
banks don't take major risks. Canada is in a recession, but not as badly as
many countries around the world.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

D. E.Rodriguez — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 03:20:52 -0000

Westbeach80:

Thanks for the links and for the other constructive and helpful comments you have made.

Dorian

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

adelinesdad — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:31:55 -0000

"Still there is a fundamental difference between that and acting like the government is goign to going to kill grandma."

Agreed. I admitted that the rhetoric from the right is more inflammatory. That seems to be a pattern with the party that is out of power (see the 911 conspiracy theorists on the left when Bush was in power which have similar poll number to the current Birther&#39s movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinion_polls...) The party in power wants to look calm and calculating, to give the impression of control and confidence (hows that for some alliteration). The party out of power wants to make it seem like the world is going to end tomorrow (but if it doesn&#39t, vote us into office as soon as possible so we can fix it). So yes, we can expect a different type of rhetoric from both sides, but beneath the rhetoric are the same distortions.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

Dorian — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:20:52 -0000

Westbeach80:

Thanks for the links and for the other constructive and helpful comments you have made.

Dorian

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:01:19 -0000

Please see my post re: Chicago politics....Yes I agree...get the government out of my life...except for security and disaster relief....

anything else is unconstitutional

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:59:19 -0000

Thank You...I will read each

Can we assume that President Clinton will be opting into the public option?

sorry in advance, but please stop throwing marshmellows....lol

justmy02cents

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

CStanley — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:48:06 -0000

Hmm...I&#39m not sure whether you addressed that to me because you understood my point about political clout or if you misread me. I think it&#39s wrong for allocation of resources to be done according to political clout, and I think that&#39s one of the main dangers of govt power over the resources to begin with.

I do think though that to some degree, healthcare resources have already been misallocated to senior citizens and end of life care. The problem is though that there is naturally going to be some skewing toward that end of the spectrum when care is most needed- but somehow we need to come to terms with the fact that none of us are immortal and the finite worldly resources can&#39t keep every individual alive as long as we&#39d necessarily like. I&#39d rather have the power of govt left out of the calculus for that as much as possible, but the fact is they&#39re already in it because of Medicare and the current cost trajectory is already unsustainable.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:44:36 -0000

Sorry???? I am very new to this and did not find any links....

Please understand, I am NOT contending that these things were not said.....what I&#39d like to know is are any of them TRUE or close to TRUE (no parsing of words allowed here...right?)

JustMy02Cents

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

CStanley — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:42:37 -0000

I think the issue though, mikkel, is what is effective and what is not. It doesn&#39t matter if people &#39deserve&#39 to have their concerns answered. What matters is that if you really believe that reform is important, and that it&#39s being blocked by varying degrees of misinformation from both sides (perhaps worse on one side or the other but even that doesn&#39t really matter) then you still have to look at efficacy when deciding whether or not to engage people&#39s arguments. And while I agree that it&#39s more egregious when people who know better use the dishonest arguments, by engaging them you still are able to help persuade all of the people who&#39ve been misinformed (well, not necessarily you, or I- but if one of us were a public official who could go on the cable shows and choose whether to ridicule the townhall protesters or engage the arguments that they&#39re using, for example.)

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

westbeach80 — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:42:28 -0000

Some good articles to read.

August 30, 2009 - Former U.S. president Bill Clinton swooped into Toronto yesterday, praising Canadian health care during an hour-long speech to just under 12,000 people.

Although Clinton&#39s talk focused on the growing divide between the world&#39s cities and its rural areas, he acknowledged Kennedy&#39s passing.

"I hope that his lifetime dream, that America will finally follow Canada and every other advanced nation in the world in providing affordable health care to all of our people, will pass."

Source: http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/08/...

"Among the OECD&#39s 30 members -- which include Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, the Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom -- there are only three lacking universal health coverage. The other two happen to be Mexico and Turkey, which have the excuse of being poorer than the rest (and until the onset of the world economic crisis, Mexico was on the way to providing healthcare to all of its citizens). The third, of course, is us.

As the study suggests, our grossly inflated and poorly managed health budget results from a variety of pathologies, including a greater prevalence of obesity and other chronic illness, a powerful pharmaceutical lobby that keeps prices high, and the profit-making imperative of the private insurance companies that still dominate American health policy, more than four decades after we established universal coverage for the elderly and the poor. Looking forward, the OECD advocates many of the same incremental reforms contemplated by the Obama administration."

Source: http://www.mydd.com/story/2009/3/9/18277/26800

"A single payer system could save $286 billion a year in overhead and paperwork. Administrative costs in the U.S. health care system are substantially higher than those in other countries and than in the public sector in the US: one estimate put the total administrative costs at 24 percent of U.S. health care spending."

Source: ^ Public Citizen. "Study Shows National Health Insurance Could Save $286 Billion on Health Care Paperwork:" http://www.citizen.org.

^ Reinhardt UE, Hussey PS, Anderson GF (2004). "U.S. health care spending in an international context". Health Aff (Millwood) 23 (3): 10–25. doi:10.1377/hlthaff.23.3.10. PMID 15160799. http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/fu....

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

mikkel — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:34:42 -0000

Try going here and following some of those links.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

adelinesdad — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:31:55 -0000

"Still there is a fundamental difference between that and acting like the government is goign to going to kill grandma."

Agreed. I admitted that the rhetoric from the right is more inflammatory. That seems to be a pattern with the party that is out of power (see the 911 conspiracy theorists on the left when Bush was in power which have similar poll number to the current Birther's movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... The party in power wants to look calm and calculating, to give the impression of control and confidence (hows that for some alliteration). The party out of power wants to make it seem like the world is going to end tomorrow (but if it doesn't, vote us into office as soon as possible so we can fix it). So yes, we can expect a different type of rhetoric from both sides, but beneath the rhetoric are the same distortions.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

mikkel — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:31:53 -0000

I think it&#39s important to consider the source of such concerns. I would never approve of ridiculing an individual that is concerned about death panels and such out of ignorance and asks politely and listens (and aggressively challenges incorrect stuff) but when it comes to political or media leaders, or those that are just shouting epithets...

I guess I feel that regardless of the validity of your concerns, if you don&#39t present them "well" (i.e. either rationally factual or calm...I say either because I don&#39t think it&#39s a vice be angry when you are actually being truthful) then you don&#39t deserve to have them addressed. Of course the concern you have is completely valid to debate and you may never trust the government to handle it, but you stated it logically instead of saying that the government was conspiring to kill people. Tone matters.

I guess my problem is more about the people that know better that are spreading this to get people riled up, not so much the people that believe it. I don&#39t see any reason why they should be "allowed" to do this.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:31:13 -0000

Dear CStanley,

It is my FIRM belief that the receipt of healthcare SHOULD NOT DEPEND on POLITICAL CLOUT!

period

finit

c&#39est sa

A perfect example of where EACH and EVERY ONE of the current crop of reform proposals will lead us to.

One has only to examine where the portion of $787 billion stimulus that have been committed to date have gone....80% as "rewards" to supporters of the current administration.

Did I just hear a chill run down your spine?

the following is from PatriotPost.US Monday 8/31/2009

Please take the time to read it and then understand that this is NOT about healthcare reform, healthcare insurance reform or any other type of reform.....

"read my lips" it is about POWER

TO he central government FROM the citizenry.

"Chicago politics is not about ideology. It is about, &#39Who Gets What, When, and How,&#39 to quote the inimitable Harold D. Laswell, one of the outstanding political theorists of the last century. The sine qua non of Chicago politics is power, getting it and keeping it. Everything else is incidental. Even corruption is a byproduct of power and is functional only if it enables you to stay in power. In Chicago politics, you don&#39t make waves, you don&#39t back losers, and you &#39don&#39t talk to nobody nobody sent.&#39 Chicago politics is always about hierarchy and centralization. ... If you want to understand Obama&#39s health care policy, you need to start where Obama starts. You need to start with Chicago. You need to look at constituent interests. Obama won in 2008 because, among other things, he mobilized the electoral periphery. He mobilized young voters and minority voters, people who traditionally had a lower probability of showing up on Election Day. Chicago politics is about mobilizing the vote. &#39Vote early and often&#39 is the city&#39s sardonic refrain. Obama needs his newly socialized base. He needs them to keep coming to the polls. In the vein of Chicago politics, he needs to deliver benefits to them. Unrewarded, the electoral periphery will revert back to apathy. Health care is a reward to this base of people who are on the economic as well as political periphery. ... Obama understands that his objective is to provide his base with the spoils of power -- in this case insurance. ... If all that Obama wanted were to insure those who fall between the cracks, he could put them into the same wonderful program that Congress created for itself by subsidizing their premiums. This would neither require a thousand pages of legislation nor a new series of bureaucracies. But building a new power base resulting from the mobilization of the political and economic periphery requires redefining the nation&#39s health problems as the nation&#39s health catastrophe. Health reform is Chicago politics on a national level." --University of Cincinnati emeritus professor of political science Abraham Miller

"Power to the People"

JustMy02cents

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

CStanley — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:52:48 -0000

Ugh...just wrote a fairly lengthy reply and then lost it.

Short version is that I think we disagree on the value of ridicule. I think that even people making absurdly exaggerated claims really do have some basis for their concerns. Sometimes the concern might be completely unfounded and you can show them why; other times it&#39s a valid concern but being blown out of proportion. I think it&#39s important to try to validate real concerns while separating those from the ones that are completely off the wall. And while we may also disagree about validity of concerns from the right, I do happen to agree with some of the core principles about govt involvement in allocation of health resources. To date, the govt insurance programs haven&#39t rationed much at all with some populations (seniors) due to the political clout of those groups, while they do provide inadequate resources for other groups with less clout (veterans, the disabled, and Native Americans). Adding more groups under the govt umbrella will likely lead to higher and higher expenditures and then turf battles over who gets the highest quality care and who has to give up more- and to some degree senior citizens are probably going to have to give up the most from what they have now (and that&#39s not altogether bad or wrong either, but I don&#39t really trust the decisions to be well made.)

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:48:24 -0000

WHEW! I am really exhausted from reading this thread.....

For a supposedly moderate thread, there seems to be a majority of throwbacks to the past 8 years of the Presidential Administration....especially those with BDS...

So while reading through this swapping-spit festival with Dorian, I MUST have overlooked any post that actually examined the substance of the proported satire.

Did I miss it somewhere?

Nevertheless, I digress. For the record, I do not support any of the present healthcare reform proposals.

Each has serious failings and combining the "best" from each still leaves a lot to be desired.

Nowhere has anyone explained the difference between healthcare reform and healthcare insurance reform. It seems that these terms are used interchangeably when they are very different issues.

Let me start with healthcare insurance reform. I&#39ll admit that there are pandemic problems with today&#39s healthcare insurance industry.....some of which may be remedied with minor surgery...(pardon the pun).

For example:
allow insruance to travel with an employee across state lines

make insurance ala carte....I DO NOT NEED TO PAY FOR MATERNITY COVERAGE...those days are over for me...there are many other mandatory coverages that I will NEVER NEED yet I STILL MUST PAY FOR THEM

eliminate the odious "pre-existing condition" and force the insurers to add all insured to the pool of covered participants.

Eliminate "waiting periods"

OK now it is YOUR turn to be a moderate voice and suggest some additional changes that will save money and improve coverage....instead of slobbering over Dorian&#39s sad attempt at satire.

Regarding eligibility for private coverage, I believe that coverage should only be available to:
legally employed
unemployed US Citizens
unempoyed Legal Residents
(oops there goes the new voting block the left was counting on)

By no means do I think that this is anything more than a small start at a reasonable approach to reform

Just My $0.02

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

CStanley — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:35:27 -0000

Of course, for a reason: To, through satire---and by using verbatim quotes---expose the exaggerations, lies and fear mongering by the "right wing nuts."
Well, that is what I meant when I referred to what you were advocating- because by attempting to &#39expose&#39, I assume you advocate that reasonable people should ignore those who make these exaggerated claims.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

DBR — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:06:40 -0000

OK, I oppose the Democratic health care plans vehemently, but I couldn't even get past the opening paragraphs of this extreme piece - I mean, "diabolical" and "evil?" Really? If you want reasonable, rational people to agree with your positions, you have to present reasonable and rational arguments....please. Talk of "evil" just turns people away from what might have been some good points....

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

westbeach80 — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:06:18 -0000

The best reform is starting exercise programs at work, school, and home. In the past, we moved around a lot to do things, but now many of us just sit and consume information. Think about it, 5 days out of the week if you are working a regular office job, you wake up in bed, sit and eat breakfast (if you even have any and studies show eating a healthy breakfast improves your diet), get in the car, drive to work, sit at the desk for 8 hours, get in the car, drive home, sit and eat dinner, and then sit on the couch watching TV or reading a book.

We often have a short term vision for health care and not a long term. If the government and private sector started encouraging people to exercise, it saves the health care system millions of dollars in the long run: less hospital visits, and paying for medication. In Vancouver, exercise and eating right is promoted everywhere. The City of Vancouver recently closed one lane of Burrard Street Bridge for cyclists only to encourage people to bike to work. The university I work at has recently changed all their vending machines to healthy snacks and removed all junk food.

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

D. E.Rodriguez — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:14:19 -0000

Mikkel, thanks for perhaps more eloquently, patiently and thoughtfully responding on some of the comments.

Dorian

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:01:19 -0000

Please see my post re: Chicago politics....Yes I agree...get the government out of my life...except for security and disaster relief....

anything else is unconstitutional

Re: Obama’s Health Care Reform Will Decimate Our Population

justmy02cents — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:59:19 -0000

Thank You...I will read each

Can we assume that President Clinton will be opting into the public option?

sorry in advance, but please stop throwing marshmellows....lol

justmy02cents