The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

im4america2 — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:24:19 -0000

BO is the more pro-military candidate? Nothing could be farther from the truth. Tell that to our men in combat and they'll laugh in your face (hopefully that's all they'd do). Overwhelmingly, the men who fight in combat units (I'm not being sexist here, women aren't allowed to serve in the infantry) have made it known they are voting for McCain. Know that are simply canceling out the vote of one of the brave souls who fight for you. If you care about the men that make up our volunteer army, maybe you should have broadened the scope of your research to military.com or any one of the military sites to understand how those affected by BO's positions think of him. Of course, like most elitist, you know better than these grunts and chose to glean your talking points from sources hell bent on electing BO rather than going directly to the source.

America's COMBAT soldiers who've re-enlisted in record numbers will vote with their feet if BO is elected POTUS BO and your POTUS BO will be THE singe reason the US will be forced to reinstate the draft. In these times, America can't afford a national defense downgraded to the level of soldier a draft would give us.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

timr — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:18:51 -0000

CStanley. 1-McCain continues to insist that all his programs are still going to happen and that he will still balance the budget in 4 years. His HI plan main point is that the HI that people get thru their employer would be counted as taxable income.
2-You insist that the dems are all corrupt- admittedly inferred, not explicit-yet ignore the entire last 8 years of massive republician corruption and downright crookery. Think about this for a min. What took the democratic party 50 years to accomplish-massive corruption and crookery- only took the republicians being in charge for 8 years(along with a republician president, whom they never contradicted, even when he seized power that rightly belonged to congress) to accomplish what took the dems 50 years. Total party corruption.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

timr — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:01:31 -0000

CStanley, When was Obama challenged by the MSM? You maybe were in a cave during the Dem primaries? The rev Wright was nonstop 24/7 for over 2 solid weeks. The questions in the debates were very hostile to both HRC and Obama. The cable news nets were almost to the point of outright racism in their pejorative comments about not only Obama but his wife;who among us can forget the fns "reporter" who commented on the "terrorist fist bump" between Obama and his wife when he was declared the dem candidate. That was all over all the networks within min. I can go on and on and on. My side is that until McCain brought the rove disciples on boeard and even hired those who slimed him in NC in 2000, he was the darling of the MSM. Never was heard a discouraging word, and the skies were not cloudy all day. However when he started condeming the media for "going easy on Obama" and started putting out ads that even the master manipulator himself-k. rove-stated that theyhad gone beyond the pale. When McCain got up in the face of the MSM, that was when they started to challenge everything that he was actually lying about-I have no idea if McCain is lying to himself when he defends those ads that have been proven to be lies-but defend them he does. The McCain of 2008 is not the McCain of 2000, who I voted for, gave money to, and campaigned for in Mich. I would never vote for McCain 2.0 as he has been caught numerous times in lies, and has stated that if he campaigns on the issues he will lose, so he will campaign against the media and will attack-ie;Swiftboat-Obama on "Character" issues-oh, and BTW-(whisper) did you know he is black?. Racism and bigotry will continue until the MSM decides that they will not continue to give time and space to scurrilous attacks

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Jim_Satterfield — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:24:18 -0000

Whatever you may have done in 2006 I'm just writing about what I see in your posts now like calling Dana Milbank a liar because microphones meant to pick up what the candidate is saying didn't clearly pick up something from the audience. Like making apples to oranges comparisons on the McCain campaign's personal and misleading ads to the Obama replies. Your total defense of anything McCain sort of supports what I write.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Rambie — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:26:49 -0000

LOL, I loved that cartoon, Oct 7th one is good too.

What's telling is here in Utah I have yet to see ONE McCain yard sign. One of the reddest of red states is luke-warm about McCain, sure they'll vote for him but they don't like him.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:01:04 -0000

Jim, I'm not sure how many times your going to make comments like that before other people start calling you on it, since I've REPEATEDLY stated on this forum that I did not vote Republican in the midterm election precisely for the reason that I'm asking people here to consider- divided govt.

I shouldn't have to divulge that in order to justify having a conversation with people whose views vary from mine anyway, but since I have chosen to talk about my voting record I would ask that you at least stop lying about it.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Jim_Satterfield — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:55:10 -0000

I really don't understand why anyone is trying to rationalize their decision to CS. In spite of her protestations in this thread as Rudi noted she never had any problem with the presidency and both houses of Congress being Republican . She's a Republican. Period. End of subject. It's not about divided government for her. It's about party loyalty. That's her political belief and it's not like she isn't going to criticize every Democrat and defend every Republican just because someone points out some inconvenient facts. Like maybe some people just resented being called whiners.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:06:10 -0000

YIKES!

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Polimom — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:43:42 -0000

CStanley -- yes, foreign policy is part of it. I posted in full here on TMV a little while ago -- and I even quoted you in there!

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:36:13 -0000

Well, Polimom, I'll reiterate my last paragraph above. I don't see that there is the huge discrepancy in temperament that so many people are buying into. I remember back to the days before the election when people here were discussing (and agreeing, no matter what one's political stripe was) that the media often creates these narratives and then everyone views the events of the campaign through those filters. Although we all recognize this is true, I feel very concerned that those who are buying the "McCain is erratic" meme are not realizing that they're falling prey to it.

In what way, for instance, has Obama's judgment actually proven superior in the current economic crisis? Perhaps you preferred his style, but in reality although he criticized McCain for injecting presidential politics the record actually shows that it was the Congressional Dems who did so (Reid first tried to blast McCain for not coming to DC, then when McCain called his bluff and actually went, Reid and others said that they did not want him there- as though he had no right as a US Senator and prospective president to attempt to influence one of the biggest policy decisions of our lifetime.)

And did Obama criticize the Democrats in Congress for playing politics? No, he piled on and also claimed this was McCain's fault. Then he promptly appeared in front of the cameras after the WH meeting and told people that McCain didn't seem to have anything to add to the discussions, and then started taking credit for every idea that was being put forth for the bailout bill (though he said that the presidential candidates should stay out of it because of the politicization.)

And it's still way too soon to judge whether any actual policy stances of each candidate has proven right or wrong (look at the bailout- the market tanks when it's voted down, then tanks again today in spite of it passing.) Truth is that no one knows what is right or wrong. Unfortunately, although everyone wants to say that we shouldn't point fingers, this is precisely one of the situations where blame must be assigned in order to figure out what went wrong so that we can correct it.

A lot of moderates have accepted the demonization of Phil Gramm, for instance, and by association have turned away from McCain. Yet his involvement in the bill that overturned Glass Steagall was a highly bipartisan endeavor and was (and still is) endorsed by Bill Clinton.

So on substance of economics, I don't see why Obama is getting such a bump from this crisis (and that's before we even get into the spending and size of government parts of that issue.) Since I also favor McCain's stance on foreign policy issues, I would have a hard time agreeing with you if that is where your decision stems from (as you mentioned that it's not just the economy.)

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Polimom — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:00:36 -0000

Considering that I've also now jumped down off the fence, I'd like to reinforce Pete's concluding point.

Although we're very narrowly focused just now, the challenges facing the next president aren't limited to the economy. I've put a great deal of thought into the financial situation, and still found that Obama's temperament was a persuasive deciding factor.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:54:38 -0000

Rudi: I took lotusflwr as talking about moderation in policy, but as I reread her comment perhaps she does mean it in the way that you do. I suppose my question to her relates to my inability to understand how anyone who once identified as a Republican (presumably due to a belief that conservative principles work better than liberal ones) could accept Obama's policy proposals (particularly since his record is far more liberal than his current proposals, and even with the realization most people now have that big govt spending programs will have to be off the table, he can't bring himself to say that he would do so.)

I understand that demeanor and temperament do matter, but I think most people are accepting a media and liberal blog driven narrative of McCain's temperament which is a caricature of the real man, and even to the degree that Obama is more deliberative he comes to the wrong conclusions (in the eyes of a conservative or center right voter) when he's finished deliberating.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

rudi — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:31:33 -0000

CS Not just policies, but in overall demeanor Obama is the moderate and acting presidential. Look what Will and WSJ have to say:
http://www.washingtonpost.c...\

McCain Loses His Head
By George F. Will
Tuesday, September 23, 2008; Page A21
...
Under the pressure of the financial crisis, one presidential candidate is behaving like a flustered rookie playing in a league too high. It is not Barack Obama.

Channeling his inner Queen of Hearts, John McCain furiously, and apparently without even looking around at facts, said Chris Cox, chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, should be decapitated. This childish reflex provoked the Wall Street Journal to editorialize that "McCain untethered" -- disconnected from knowledge and principle -- had made a "false and deeply unfair" attack on Cox that was "unpresidential" and demonstrated that McCain "doesn't understand what's happening on Wall Street any better than Barack Obama does."
...

http://www.wsj.com/article/...

John McCain has made it clear this week he doesn't understand what's happening on Wall Street any better than Barack Obama does. But on Thursday, he took his populist riffing up a notch and found his scapegoat for financial panic -- Christopher Cox, the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. To give readers a flavor of Mr. McCain untethered, we'll quote at length:
...

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:05:34 -0000

lotusflwr: which specific policies of Obama do you consider more moderate than those of McCain?

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

big3theone — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:38:35 -0000

Lotusflwr,
i have a such respect on your point view because it show s the transparency that Americans are looking today. We the people are looking for a serious leader who will do a better job for us here in U.S. and give also back what belongs to U.S. proud respect abroad, I did not see those qualities in McCain/Palin ticket. I love the McCain hero war story but it does not qualify him to be the commander in chief. He is not well balanced when it comes to take a decision in stressful situation. I see him struggling about what position to take about the actual financial crisis that we are facing. About Palin? I did not see the character of the seriousness that shows that she can lead either. i am waiting to see the result of the troopergate caase. just looking the v.p. debate i conclude that she abused her power in the shame firing of the troopergate in Alaska.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:35:03 -0000

One thing I can't get over is how many people are using the word "deserve".

The GOP "deserves" a long timeout.

Who exactly is being punished, if by reflexively voting against one party we're ignoring the abuses of the other?

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

fmrcoastie — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:30:36 -0000

I am a veteran & been a middle of the road Republican for over 30 years.

I have not been very happy with the fundamentals of this economy or the backsliding of this nation in global popularity for several years now. So I have watched the primaries as they whittled down the hopefuls and listened to the viewpoints of all the Rep & Dem candidates until there were only 2 left.

I found myself listening to Senator Obama and being more & more impressed. I also found myself hoping that Senator McCain would come up with something that would spark my interest more in his favor. The selection of Joe Biden for running mate was a practical and thoughtful decision for Obama. The selection of Palin by McCain was a bold move & might have worked, however every time she speaks just makes me wince yet again.

I watched with increduality at McCains recent erratic actions & statements. Now I listen to her and the once respected Senator McCain relying solely on character assasination & negativity to propel their platform. What happened to the issues? Obama's negativity seems to be a defensive maneuver every time McCain/Palin launch another attack.

I am off the fence now and standing in the democrat's backyard. I know that this will also surprise and offend some of my family and friends as well- I have been very positively vocal in the past of the Rep tickets, however my conscience won't let me go with it this time. Believe me, I still have plenty of questions about a Obama/Biden presidency, but I believe that between the realistic presidential options available to us- The Democratic ticket comes out ahead.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

rudi — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:12:49 -0000

I fear McCain’s mind is at once too stubborn and too flippant to be trusted in the White House. His mind might be useful for a fighter-pilot, or for a Senator who has built a noteworthy career on squeaky-wheelness, but it’s not a useful mind for a President.

McCain wasn't a good pilot either. I wonder how may of todays Annapolis grads finish fifth from the bottom become fighter pilots? Based on McCain's standing, he wouldn't even qualify as laundry officer on a cargo ship like the USS Reluctant ("the Bucket").

CS says: The GOP will not be reformed in time to keep the corruption of the Democratic party in check, MaryL, if we don't maintain divided rule. We need it now more than ever since we can't afford the payola schemes that have dominated Washington politics and led to the economic meltdown.

Of course you felt this way in 2000 and 2004 when Bush won Reaganesque landslide and push his mandates on the 49% who voted against Bush. Why shouldn't Obama deserve the same Bush mandate?

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

lotusflwr — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:55:46 -0000

I agree with MaryL on this one. I think the GOP needs to take a beating and regroup. The Democrats have been "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" for quite some time and really seem to be easing up and becoming more centrist as of late. I believe Obama prevailed against Hilary because she's much more divisive than he, and the Dems did not want another Gore or Kerry, whose campaigns played out well but were unpalatable to undecided & moderate voters.

The GOP needs to do the same, but I don't think they'll have the motivation until they are roundly defeated and realize that the extreme right base just is not there anymore. 4 or 8 years ago, McCain was much more energized and moderate, but I think time and circumstance has worn him down to the point where he knows this is his last chance and he cannot snub the Bush administration while also maintaining Republican support. Sadly, his response has been to make bad and irresponsible gambles like Sarah Palin and deflect our scrutiny onto Obama through negative campaigning in an effort to look engaged, active and in control. He's stuck between the rock of breaking with party lines to decry the current regime and the hard place of needing to win since this is his last shot.

The people want moderates and they will vote for whichever party gives them the most moderate candidates. When faced with a moderate Dem. vs a moderate Rep., nuances and fundamental party ideals will become important again. Until then, no amount of distractions like spunky, folksy inexperienced female running mates trotting out overstated terrorist associations will fool anyone who doesn't want to be fooled.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

lotusflwr — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:35:02 -0000

The thought-process here about hopping off the fence for Obama mirrors almost exactly my own journey -- from waiting to vote for McCain only to be disappointed with every new development, growing increasingly impressed with Obama's statesmanship and studied, thoughtful demeanor (for example, his speech to the press on race following the Rev. Wright debacle was the best speech I've ever heard on race since MLK), right down to disappointing my pro-military, pro-life relatives (I don't know how I'm going to distract attention away from the topic should a holiday dinnertable conversation turn to politics.) Very eerie to read when it so completely mirrors my own thoughts. Get out of my head, Pete Abel -- time for my tinfoil hat! :)

I'm also finding myself leaning towards voting Democrat for US Senate here in VA, since even our retiring Republican Senator John Warner is calling the Republican candidate former VA Gov. Jim Gilmore very partisan and wrong-headed in his relentlessly vocal opposition of the bailout bill (plus I take issue with a number of his past dealings as governor and viewpoints on where both our state and country should go forward on several key issues.)

I had hoped a few months back that I'd get to choose between two platforms that represented serious change, albeit in fundamentally different ways. The two candidates are indeed fundamentally different, but only one of them is also fundamentally different from the very damaging and disturbing Bush policies that have trounced all over the Constitution and caused a much bigger mess than just bad mortgages and Iraq (though those 2 are more than enough for any one country.)

Still 2 debates to go but with McCain pulling out of key battleground states and going full negative, I don't expect to hear any substance from him or any resurrection of the spunky bipartisan man who truly was a maverick back before he himself made the word tired, trite and meaningless. I'll pretty much just be watching to study Obama's cool-as-a-cucumber style even more and try to gauge what to expect from him when he enters office.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

ChrisWWW — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:07:54 -0000

CStanley,
Presenting the news straight should be the goal of the press, but that doesn't mean equivocating. For the record, McCain has run a dirtier campaign than Obama. McCain has been more critical of the press than Obama. McCain has been more secretive than Obama. McCain has flip-flopped more than Obama. McCain's policies, when he's not lying about them, are more unpopular than Obama's.

And seriously, who in the press was criticizing McCain for the BBQ at his ranch? Other than leftwing bloggers and KO?

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

CStanley — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:55:46 -0000

So, Chriswww, the press doesn't have an obligation to report the news straight up, but should take the side of whoever is nice to them? Besides being ridiculous ethically, even that is a case of McCain being damned if he does, damned if he doesn't because earlier in the campaign season he was being roundly criticized for cozying up to the press with a BBQ at his ranch, for instance.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

timr — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:48:55 -0000

In his column that appeared in my local paper today, George Will damns McCain with very faint praise. But what is really, I believe, the best comment of all is Todays (10-6) Non Sequitur cartoon. In it you have a couple standing outside a republician party hq-no parties were mentioned, but the inference is clear-In the window is a sign that says Incumbent party HQ, another sign below this says. YOU WANT CHANGE? VOTE FOR US!. The man says to his wife"Well this answers our question on just how stupid they think we are". The very best political commentary in the entire country. Non Sequitur by Wiley.

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

ChrisWWW — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:46:24 -0000

That's pretty accurate elrod, but proves my point. As soon as the general election got underway, Obama got a boost from the negative press that started affecting McCain.

I don't necessarily agree that McCain is being destroyed by the press, but if he is, it's a situation of his own making. He's cut off access to himself and his virtually unknown running-mate. Plus, he's made it clear that everybody but Fox News and rightwing radio is the enemy. How smart is that?

Re: Off the Fence: Voting Obama

Silhouette — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:33:05 -0000

Yep, Country first. Vote for the diplomat this time. The world is watching..

No Cowboys, No Mavericks, Just Sanity.
*******
"Thursday, Steven Stark summed it up thus: “… in the past several weeks McCain has certainly been anything but steady at the helm. The economy is good — oops, no it isn’t. I’m for the Paulson plan — no, maybe I’m not. I won’t be going to the debates unless there’s a bailout deal — oh, I guess I’ll go.”
*********

The Obama campaign would do well to purchase or redub that bit The Daily Show did on McCain's flip-flopping within the same interview about the Paulson Bill. If he could add Smeagle at the end and that photo comparison with McCain...my God...the resemblance is too close! ...lol... What a riot that show is..

It is good to remember that McCain is sequestered in la-la land when it comes to the real suffering of the American people. He totally was disconnected and didn't even realize we were in a recession, then he did, then he didn't, then he did...

Then when he got caught on his apathetic incompetance and it bit him in the butt, he ran from the debate like a chicken...only coming back when he realized his campaign would end right there and then if he didn't; and had the gall to call his cowardice as doing something heroic, when Congress publicly dis-invited him on the evening news and told him flatly to stay out of it..

Why do I smell Dick Cheney behind McCain. I can almost see Cheney's face being superimposed on McCain's now and then. Must just be the terrible color quality on Fox news?

Fearful now that his Talking Caribou Barbie Doll has not pulled his blunder far enough ahead in the polls, he returns to more cowardice in the form of swiftboating and namecalling. If McCain was on a playground at school, he'd be put in a corner with a dunce cap by now..

While we are revisiting the youthful indescretion of the candidates..

Even nowadays, Ittle Johnny McCain needs to grow up, but not on our dollar. He's too erratic and immature. He is, like Bush, the son of privilege and was spared facing the brunt of his mistakes while daddy bailed him out right and left in his youth. I watched that documentary on his life and marvelled how close his upbringing was to Dubya's. Both of them had father's of high position and privilege. Both did very poorly in school...McCain barely graduating (if memory serves) at the very bottom 5% of his class. Both "partied" quite heavily and were irresponsible. Now McCain wants us to trust him to run the country?

The "relatability quotient" falls flat when you consider that most "Joe Sixpacks" (do they take offense to being called this?) would never run for president and would shudder in horror at the idea of really considering any of their friends as running our country. I mean, it's fun to jaw about down at the pool hall, but does McCain seriously believe that behaving like an erratic jackass will appeal to these people in these sobering times?

Even "Joe Sixpack" has to pay the bills with some sort of income. Heck, I consider myself educated a bit above the average Joe or Jane and still, I would not want me running the country. Relatability is overrated when people are frantic and looking to a solid, sober and sane leader to get them through these troubled times and back to the easy days at the beer hall after work. Even Joe has a bottom line and this time around Joe's wallet is going to vote.

Work...remember when America had work?