The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

onleyone — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:36:45 -0000

shame. has political correctness reared its ugly head at the Moderate Voice?

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

onleyone — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:17:33 -0000

i was hoping for some actual discussion here; racism by non-whites is really a taboo subject.

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

superdestroyer — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:44:37 -0000

D. E.

From the point of view of ambitious white and Asian students in most American high schools, black students will appear either lazy or mentally inferior. While the Asian and white students work hard and are ambitious, too many black students appear to not care about academic achievement and will want to distract other students. Every year in California, graduating Asian students will feel safe enough to point out about how the AP/IB classes are filled with Asian and white students while the remedial/basic classes are filled with black and Hispanic students.

When looking for explanation for why black students massively underperform even when corrected for parental education or income, whites and Asians will naturally conclude that blacks are either lazy (do not do assignments, skip class, do not do extra work) or mentally inferior (not capable of doing the work)

Now what conclusion should the white and Asian students at T.C. Willaims make while sitting in all white and Asian AP classes in a school that is majority blacks and Hispanc. Do you want them to conclude that societal racism accounts for all of the bad behavior of black students?

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

Dorian — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:10:42 -0000

Superdestroyer:

Again, I am only questioning whether you really mean to state, or suggest, or to repeat someone else's claim or belief that "backs are either mentally inferior or lazy or some of both?"

Pleas, don't answer a question with a question. That's not constructive towards a dialogue

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

onleyone — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:17:54 -0000

there is a black american subculture of victimhood today, just as there is one rising amongst white christianists.

this is not to make any claims about racial inferiority, but simply to say that blacks and rural whites -- at least, the members of these particular subcultures that celebrate ignorance and revile personal growth, and blame the larger culture for most/all of their failings -- have some cultural changes due if they want to "keep up".

i mean, c'mon: 40 years of welfare and affirmative action, and the disintegration of the black family continues.

i have a lot of "redneck" types in my extended biological family, and i know the difference between "poor" and "white trash". it is not a question of how much money a family gets, but how they live regardless.

if we continue to tell a large segment of the population that nothing about their work or family life is really their fault, how long till they believe it?

i have the same problem with the recent bailout, with democratic pundits hither and yon telling us it was the fault of congress and the white house. our desperate financial situation has nothing to do with how "regular folks" spend their money? oh really?

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

superdestroyer — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:16:18 -0000

D. E. Rodriques,

If is not uncommon for elite whites to think rednecks are both lazy and stupid because of their failure to achieve. Would you really expect them to think differently of blacks who do not achieve at the top levels in school?

What do you think that the white and Asian students at NYC top three public high schools think of blacks. http://gothamist.com/2006/0...

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

Dorian — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:02:44 -0000

Superdestroyer:

I am only questioning whether you really mean to state, or suggest, or to repeat someone else's claim or belief that "backs are either mentally inferior or lazy or some of both?"

That's all

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

onleyone — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:25:50 -0000

SD:

i'm not so sure what you're trying to say here, either. it almost seems as if you're missing a word here and there.

if you're saying that the opinions and views of non-"minority" students can be affected negatively by their experiences in such situations, then we are on the same wavelength.

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

superdestroyer — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 05:29:42 -0000

D. E.Rodriguez,

You may want to look up the stories in the Washington Post on T. C. Williams High School. The school is only about 25% and less than 20% Asian. Yet, the AP classes are overwhelmingly white with almost no blacks or Hispanics. The Washington Post reported that the white students of some of the most liberal leaning families in Virginia routinely refer to the non-AP classes as "ghetto" classes.

Are you arguing that the white students who attend a schools that is majority black and Hispanic would be totally irradiational is being biased against blacks or can you admit that their life experiences actually affect their beliefs and attitudes?

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

onleyone — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:16:30 -0000

i have to say something that's been on my mind for quite some time.

i cannot speak to what 'superdestroyer' may or may not have said. but having grown up in one of the southernmost counties of maryland -- one of many places where racial tensions can get mighty uncomfortable -- i think it's pertinent to say that black people, too, can be racist. being an incredibly shy and largely inoffensive child, i was the victim of black-on-white bigotry and bullying myself, as were many of my schoolmates. being a minority myself while, say, riding home from a public school on the bus, i was in no position to fight back even if i'd had the inclination.

now, i can't say that the white sentiment in my area was much better. but to state that many white folks hold to a barely submerged racism, while true, does little to pull the whole, sorry mess of mutual bigotry into the light where it needs to be.

and i hope there aren't many here who hold to the still-faddish yet utterly ridiculous tripe by spike lee, who claims (as does malcolm x, early in his autobiography) that the minority race, being in a politically disadvantageous position, is incapable of true racism. unfair racial stereotyping, as sentiment or as actually expressed, is bigotry/racism by definition, no matter where one stands sociopolitically....

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

Dorian — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:05:22 -0000

superdestroyer:

I don't quite know what to make of your comment, "How can people who have the educational experiences of my daugher not learn the "subconscious" lesson that blacks are either mentally inferior or lazy or some of both?"

I sincerely hope that what you intend to say is not what you appear to have actually said?!

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

superdestroyer — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:23:52 -0000

I love the idea proposed by the left that whites live in a world where they are never exposed to blacks and thus have no reason to have any biases. Yet, at my daughters high schools that is 10% black, there at no blacks in the IB/AP classes and a single black (actually half black) student in orchestra. How can people who have the educational experiences of my daugher not learn the "subconscious" lesson that blacks are either mentally inferior or lazy or some of both?

In the real world, most people biases are a sum of family environment and personal experiences. As people have experiences with large number of blacks, hispanics, whites, or Korean-Americans, they begin to average those experiences in their own mind. Out of that comes the socalled "subconscious" racism evern though there are real world experiences to base it own

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

Dorian — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:50:17 -0000

Thanks for your comment, JWindish.

I did go to your post and viewed part of Ford's video, and found them both interesting.

I guess the point I tried to make in my post--apparently not very well--is two-fold:

1. Discrimination, whether you call it blatant, open, overt, covert, subtle, "conscious," unconscious," or whatever, IS discrimination. Just ask those victims of such discrimination--the black , qualified person who did not get the job, etc.--how subtle, or "unconscious" it was, it felt to him or her, and whether such semantics made it any easier for them.

2. Racism, whether "conscious," or "unconscious," or whether perpetrated by
"well meaning white people," or by "racists without racism," or by "aversive racists," IS racism. Forgive me for using this by Sarah Palin's fans frowned-upon cliche, but you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.

Now, I will agree with you and others that (open) discrimination today is much less than, say, 20 years ago.

Dorian

Re: On "Racism without Racists," "Unconscious Discrimination," and "Aversive Racists"

JWindish — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:43:16 -0000

I find the phenomenon real and more challenging to address than overt racism. But address it we must. I am not familiar with the work of the people Kristoff cites. I associate the phrase "racism without racists" with Richard Thompson Ford, a professor of law at Stanford University and author of the book, The Race Card: How Bluffing About Bias Makes Race Relations Worse. I find his work and the argument he makes in his book compelling. I wrote about it here. The link includes a video of his talk at Google that is well worth viewing.