The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

ProfElwood — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:17:37 -0000

I think the difference here, is that I believe that the constitution was supposed to be absolute, so any law that violates it should be void. That would take away the presidents ability to use the military without consulting congress: it&#39s not a transferable power. In that same vein, congress wouldn&#39t approve the use of the military without an outright declaration of war. Therefore, an absolute constitution would have solved this problem before it arose.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

ProfElwood — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:17:37 -0000

I think the difference here, is that I believe that the constitution was supposed to be absolute, so any law that violates it should be void. That would take away the presidents ability to use the military without consulting congress: it's not a transferable power. In that same vein, congress wouldn't approve the use of the military without an outright declaration of war. Therefore, an absolute constitution would have solved this problem before it arose.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Father_Time — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:06:33 -0000

I think there should be a full time draft all the time, war or peace. A mandatory service allotment. No deferment allowed for any reason except for the truly mental and physically unqualified. Small things like, pilonidal cysts (ingrown hair), or any medically correctable infirmities would be made whole when called, then service required. Maybe as much as thirty percent of enlisted forces should be drawn by such a draft. Draft by birth date lottery ages 18 through 25. No “conscientious objector” or “religious objector” status allowed. All serve or a mandatory 15 years and one day prison sentence. Those drafted will serve 4 years active and two years inactive reserve. If we have a total of three million people in uniform, at least one million should be by draft, whether or not we have enough volunteers. First the draft, then the volunteers.
In this way we should have much more socioeconomic equality when it comes to military service.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Father_Time — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:40:25 -0000

Incorrect.

The President can order up to a Corps size force, (three divisions), into combat any time he wishes without consulting congress. However congress has been consulted and has given their approval to fund every conflict since WWII anyway.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Father_Time — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:06:33 -0000

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Father_Time — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:40:25 -0000

Incorrect.

The President can order up to a Corps size force, (three divisions), into combat any time he wishes without consulting congress. However congress has been consulted and has given their approval to fund every conflict since WWII anyway.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

dduck12 — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:05:42 -0000

You miss the point. It is highly unlikely that either party would have a chance of getting the full draft.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

SteveK — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:18:38 -0000

I don&#39t have any ideas to help our worn out heros, do you?

Yes... Re-institute the draft, a LOOPHOLE FREE draft where ONLY legitimate 4Fer&#39s were exempt.

Young men of draft age are already required to register for the draft so it would take no time to put their names in the hat and get our military up to a strength that will no longer require 4th and 5th tours of duty in a combat zone.

Those who think this is a bad idea had best go to their next "Town Hall Meeting" and tell... nay, demand that their congress person take the steps required to keep you children out of harms way. (i.e. end the pointless, unprovoked war in Iraq)

I personally believe, as stated above, that once a draft was called American would very rapidly correct the disastrous foreign policy of the Bush years and that we&#39d extricate ourselves from the war that Bush and Cheney knowingly mislead congress and the American people into allowing them to start. This would end the hawkish, confrontational military posturing of the last 9 years and need for a draft would be short lived... Until next time.

If you don&#39t think it can be done and/or would rather spend time arguing over how low the President should bow then you&#39re part of the problem... Part of the reason &#39our heroes are worn out&#39 and not part of a solution.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

dduck12 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:05:14 -0000

"You&#39ve yet to suggest what you think would work. How about a few suggestions in lieu of ad hominem and personal attack?" First of all, who are you to tell me what to do?

If I was that smart, I certainly would try to tell you and the others my ideas.
I don&#39t have any ideas to help our worn out heros, do you?
I also did not personalize, you did: "You wouldn&#39t be a registered member of the "Party of NO" would you?"

You also said: It took two rereads of you comment to realize that you&#39ve said nothing. You have offered no solutions, you simply chosen to call people who are offering one "propeller heads"

I have nothing against prop. heads, I&#39m asking them for ideas tgo solve this problem.
Finally, I don&#39t think a full draft is doable (no political will) or necessarily good at this point. And I&#39ve stated, all those extra troops in a non-critcal environment could be a temptation to deploy.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

D. E.Rodriguez — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:34:33 -0000

"But that is not the issue here, the issue if whether you served or have a child of drat [sic]age you&#39d be willing to have drafted"

The issue really is whether re-introducing a universal military draft would--when war is absolutely necessary---spread the cost and sacrifice more equitably among all Americans.

The issue really is whether, when the specter of having one&#39s son or daughter being sent to fight in some questionable war in some far-off land, hangs over politicians and the powerful and the wealthy, as it does now over the not-so-wealthy and the not-so-powerful, we might finally begin to see the end to "wars of choice," and to other military adventurism.

I believe that is the issue addressed by the author

Dorian de Wind 1958-1978

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

DLS — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:25:12 -0000

"Not a true freeze then, just a little frost. ;-)"

Well, for those with heated emotions and propensity for "creativity" in all its forms...

* * *

"I notice a lot of social engineering talk here."

I&#39m not intending it (hence no redefinition of the role of the military, as I addressed earlier). The task of the military is a dirty one, and what should be a last resort, reasonably. All should share the risk, and I&#39m not envisioning any kind of grand role for the conscriptees (much less a civilian "national service" or "national apprenticeship" job-and-career-training-while-not-on-active-duty project), but just realizing that discipline and direction would probably be considered a good thing for the still-immature youth (prior to maturation of those frontal lobes), and yes, including those in trouble (and dropping out of school).

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

DLS — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:19:22 -0000

"This is a obvious loophole"

Only if you presuppose it&#39s permitted to function this way, which isn&#39t intended, as even more illogical people might claim, and in fact this possibility can be prevented. Aside from that, what else do we then do with dropouts (which by definition won&#39t accept being "asked" to repeat their education they reject)?

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

DLS — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:16:35 -0000

"Why does DLS want to send only the least qualified?"

I&#39m not; you and others are just imgaining what&#39s convenient, for whatever "reasons." [sigh]

I&#39m surprised you didn&#39t accuse me also of "wanting" to deny education to minorities and people from low-income areas just to boost the recruitment totals. [rolling eyes]

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

dduck12 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:05:42 -0000

You miss the point. It is highly unlikely that either party would have a chance of getting the full draft.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Leonidas — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:59:10 -0000

I have. So, too, have my ancestors, all the way back to the Revolutionary War (though I was the first woman).

Thats one.

I repect your family history and have a like one myself, although I myself never served. But that is not the issue here, the issue if whether you served or have a child of drat age you&#39d be willing to have drafted. You did, I did not. I respect your views on this more than those who are calling for a draft with no implications for themselves or their children and who didn&#39t themselves step up to fill this inequality gap they preach of.

P.S. Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

SteveK — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:18:38 -0000

I don't have any ideas to help our worn out heros, do you?

Yes... Re-institute the draft, a LOOPHOLE FREE draft where ONLY legitimate 4Fer's were exempt.

Young men (and women?) of draft age are already required to register for the draft so it would take no time to put their names in the hat and get our military up to a strength that will no longer require 4th and 5th tours of duty in a combat zone.

Those who think this is a bad idea had best go to their next "Town Hall Meeting" and tell... nay, demand that their congress person take the steps required to keep you children out of harms way. (i.e. end the pointless, unprovoked war in Iraq)

I personally believe, as stated above, that once a draft was called American would very rapidly correct the disastrous foreign policy of the Bush years and that we'd extricate ourselves from the war that Bush and Cheney knowingly mislead congress and the American people into allowing them to start. This would end the hawkish, confrontational military posturing of the last 9 years and need for a draft would be short lived... Until next time.

If you don't think it can be done and/or would rather spend time arguing over how low the President should bow then you're part of the problem... Part of the reason 'our heroes are worn out' and not part of a solution.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

SteveK — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:07:46 -0000

if we don&#39t help out the existing troops with some relief

You&#39ve yet to suggest what you think would work. How about a few suggestions in lieu of ad hominem and personal attack?

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

dduck12 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:05:14 -0000

"You've yet to suggest what you think would work. How about a few suggestions in lieu of ad hominem and personal attack?" First of all, who are you to tell me what to do?

If I was that smart, I certainly would try to tell you and the others my ideas.
I don't have any ideas to help our worn out heros, do you?
I also did not personalize, you did: "You wouldn't be a registered member of the "Party of NO" would you?"

You also said: It took two rereads of you comment to realize that you've said nothing. You have offered no solutions, you simply chosen to call people who are offering one "propeller heads"

I have nothing against prop. heads, I'm asking them for ideas tgo solve this problem.
Finally, I don't think a full draft is doable (no political will) or necessarily good at this point. And I've stated, all those extra troops in a non-critcal environment could be a temptation to deploy.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

dduck12 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:46:59 -0000

You wouldn&#39t of the party of NO-Sense would you. Rep or Dem, they all stink if we don&#39t help out the existing troops with some relief. I was registered for 40 years as a Ind., but am now a republican.
Better than being a NO-Sense. Thank goodness, not all Dems are like you, however, the moderate ones I like.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

superdestroyer — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:45:24 -0000

The only liberals who have any credibility when taking about the draft are the ones who send their children to inner city public schools, live in the inner city, who attend public universities, who public transportation, and who do not use private security.

With those stipulations, there is probably no one in the leadership of the Democratic Party who has any credbility when taking about the draft because their own children never feel the impact of the Democratic Party&#39s social engineering agenda. Image how different public education would be if Chelsea Clinton would have been getting her ass kicked everyday by a bunch of black gang bangers in public school.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

Dorian — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:34:33 -0000

This is in reply to Mr. Smith

"But that is not the issue here, the issue if whether you served or have a child of drat [sic]age you'd be willing to have drafted"

The issue really is whether re-introducing a universal military draft would--when war is absolutely necessary---spread the cost and sacrifice more equitably among all Americans.

The issue really is whether, when the specter of having one's son or daughter being sent to fight in some questionable war in some far-off land, hangs over politicians and the powerful and the wealthy, as it does now over the not-so-wealthy and the not-so-powerful, we might finally begin to see the end to "wars of choice," and to other military adventurism.

I believe that is the issue addressed by the author

Dorian de Wind 1958-1978

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

ProfElwood — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:00:03 -0000

The problem being addressed here is the overuse of the military. How about we try this one:
"Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power ... To declare War"
http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm

It&#39s not the president&#39s power. It&#39s not a power that congress grants to the president, or allows the president to do. If the entirety of congress truly thinks that it&#39s time for war, that is their power, but they shouldn&#39t be able to pass the buck.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

SteveK — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:36:31 -0000

"next to of course god america i
love you land of the pilgrims&#39 and so forth oh
say can you see by the dawn&#39s early my
country &#39tis of centuries come and go
and are no more what of it we should worry
in every language even deafanddumb
thy sons acclaim your glorious name by gorry
by jingo by gee by gosh by gum
why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
then shall the voice of liberty be mute?"

He spoke. And drank rapidly a glass of water

e.e.cummings - 1926

dduck12, You wouldn&#39t be a registered member of the "Party of NO" would you?

It took two rereads of you comment to realize that it says nothing. You have offered no solutions, you simply chosen to call people who are offering one "propeller heads". Than politely asking everyone not to state the obvious... IF the Republicans hadn&#39t start a unjustified, unprovoked, and unnecessary war in Iraq we wouldn&#39t be sending Americas Youth back for their fourth and fifth deployments.

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

dduck12 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:24:39 -0000

I notice a lot of social engineering talk here. Let&#39s not lose track of the fact that the current forces are being over used. A full draft is a pipe dream, nobody has the b____. Thinking out of the box, all the propeller heads here and in Washington should be able to come up with something practical to give some relief to the troops. (And, please no: Well if we didn&#39t start wars we wouldn&#39t be in this fix, crap.)

Re: On the Military Draft and True Patriotism

DLS — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:25:12 -0000

"Not a true freeze then, just a little frost. ;-)"

Well, for those with heated emotions and propensity for "creativity" in all its forms...

* * *

"I notice a lot of social engineering talk here."

I'm not intending it (hence no redefinition of the role of the military, as I addressed earlier). The task of the military is a dirty one, and what should be a last resort, reasonably. All should share the risk, and I'm not envisioning any kind of grand role for the conscriptees (much less a civilian "national service" or "national apprenticeship" job-and-career-training-while-not-on-active-duty project), but just realizing that discipline and direction would probably be considered a good thing for the still-immature youth (prior to maturation of those frontal lobes), and yes, including those in trouble (and dropping out of school).