The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 05:16:02 -0000

No problem. It&#39s all part of the mix.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Dr J — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:57:01 -0000

Kathy, I&#39ve given you many straightforward statements of my beliefs, and it has generally been my experience that what you hear is not what I thought I said. I took a different approach this time, and I&#39m sorry if it left you feeling trapped.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:25:03 -0000

iIt&#39s perfectly reasonable for you to eye Cuba warily-

Nice try, Dr J. I don&#39t eye Cuba warily. I eye YOU warily. And clearly with good reason.

I suspect the extra money we spend on health care buys us benefits that don&#39t show up in simple life expectancy stats--such as freedom to sue, for example. And I suspect that solutions that work well in small, homogeneous European countries wouldn&#39t scale up well to ours. Is that sounding more rational?

No. It sounds more honest -- a straightforward statement of your beliefs as opposed to trying to trap me into giving an answer when I don&#39t know the question -- but it does not sound more rational.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Dr J — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:12:27 -0000

Kathy, you&#39re not suggesting my desire to hire Fidel and Raul to overhaul our health care system is less than sincere, are you?

You are right, of course, but my rhetorical hope is to establish some common ground between us.

It&#39s perfectly reasonable for you to eye Cuba warily--it&#39s a third-world country with 1/300th of our GDP, a completely different culture, and a totalitarian government that engineers its own weird reality. Though it musters some surprisingly good health outcomes, you&#39re right that importing their system is a crackpot idea. Behind each of those nice-sounding stats probably lurks 10 drawbacks we don&#39t know about. And we are so different from Cuba in so many ways that it&#39s virtually guaranteed that programs that work in Cuba wouldn&#39t scale up to our giant, multicultural, non-totalitarian country.

What I&#39ve been hoping you&#39ll say is "maybe there&#39s more to it than just these outcome and cost stats" because that would establish our common ground. I balk at importing Europe&#39s health care system on the basis of those stats, for similar reasons. Quick summaries of outcome statistics don&#39t do justice to what I&#39m sure is a complex reality, and to be frank I haven&#39t seen any single-payer champions go much deeper than "Europe is better! At half the cost!" European countries are much smaller than ours--more comparable to one of our states. They&#39re poorer, and they&#39re more culturally homogeneous. Though governments don&#39t tend to be totalitarian, citizens have a different history and different relationship with the government than we do.

I suspect the extra money we spend on health care buys us benefits that don&#39t show up in simple life expectancy stats--such as freedom to sue, for example. And I suspect that solutions that work well in small, homogeneous European countries wouldn&#39t scale up well to ours. Is that sounding more rational?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 02:07:44 -0000

Dr J,

I have no inclination or disinclination for the Cuban system. I have not studied the Cuban system, know nothing about the Cuban system, and never thought about the Cuban system. I&#39m not balking at it, I&#39m not jumping at it. What I know is that you are trying to play some kind of game with me here about Cuba&#39s health care system or political system or social system or economic system or SOMETHING. And I still don&#39t know exactly what it is, but I&#39m getting tired of it. Stop trying to maneuver me and manipulate me into giving you some answer that you have in mind which you can then use to prove whatever point it is that you have in mind, if indeed you do have one.

I don&#39t have the patience of a saint, Dr J, and you are starting to SERIOUSLY annoy me. As my father used to say, piss.or.get.off.the.pot.If you have something to say, SAY.IT.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Dr J — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 01:45:03 -0000

Kathy, we&#39re talking about health care systems, not political systems. I&#39ve seen you advocate importing European health care, but I haven&#39t seen you suggest we drag their parliamentary governments (or monarchies) along too. We can copy the health care and leave the politics.

And in terms of health care systems, Cuba&#39s has much to recommend it. Government pays 90.7% of all health care costs, more than any country in Europe (though Luxembourg at 90.6% is a close second). The mortality rate due to cancer is 129 per 100,000 people, compared to 134 in the US, 141 in Germany, 143 in Spain. Life expectancy at birth is 68, only 7% behind Sweden. Their infant mortality rate is the same as the UK&#39s. They have 59 doctors per 10,000 people, more than twice the US&#39s 26. Yet they spend only 7.1% of GDP on health care, less than any western European country and only half as much as the US.

Cuba&#39s system isn&#39t perfect, but the outcome numbers look pretty good, and the cost numbers look phenomenal. These numbers say it&#39s a great position for us to build from--especially since we have so many more resources to apply to the job.

Yet whereas you regard importing a European system based on cost and outcome numbers to be the only rational choice, importing the Cuban one based on the same analysis is silly and crackpot? There&#39s a stark contradiction here. What&#39s making you balk at the Cuban option?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:16:02 -0000

No problem. It's all part of the mix.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Gootmud — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:57:01 -0000

Kathy, I've given you many straightforward statements of my beliefs, and it has generally been my experience that what you hear is not what I thought I said. I took a different approach this time, and I'm sorry if it left you feeling trapped.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:54:13 -0000

I have now read the initial update, and that is great news, AR. I&#39m sure your whole family must be over the moon.

As for doggie, I don&#39t have one yet, but here is a leading candidate:

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi...

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:25:03 -0000

iIt's perfectly reasonable for you to eye Cuba warily-

Nice try, Dr J. I don't eye Cuba warily. I eye YOU warily. And clearly with good reason.

I suspect the extra money we spend on health care buys us benefits that don't show up in simple life expectancy stats--such as freedom to sue, for example. And I suspect that solutions that work well in small, homogeneous European countries wouldn't scale up well to ours. Is that sounding more rational?

No. It sounds more honest -- a straightforward statement of your beliefs as opposed to trying to trap me into giving an answer when I don't know the question -- but it does not sound more rational.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:18:01 -0000

AR,

Read the update, I definitely had not seen that before. And it&#39s such great news. If I&#39m remembering correctly, this is much more and faster progress than you had dared to hope for initially. I&#39m very happy for all of you.

As for doggie, it&#39ll be a while, still. I&#39m being extremely careful about my choice this time, because I made some hasty, heart-overrules-head decisions in the past. Of course, I was on the rebound then, but still, I want to be cautious and realistic about what dog qualities and characteristics will fit my lifestyle and physical limitations.

I talked to Maggie (my daughter) about it, she is still leery, but here is one funny comment she made: "Mommy, what are you going to do when it&#39s icy outside? You know how much trouble you have keeping your balance on the ice even w/o a dog!"

The sad part is, she&#39s right. :-(

I just have to find a small dog, gentle, walks well on leash, and gets along with cats. It is surprisingly hard to find all of those in one dog. But here is a leading candidate:

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi...

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Gootmud — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:12:27 -0000

Kathy, you're not suggesting my desire to hire Fidel and Raul to overhaul our health care system is less than sincere, are you?

You are right, of course, but my rhetorical hope is to establish some common ground between us.

It's perfectly reasonable for you to eye Cuba warily--it's a third-world country with 1/300th of our GDP, a completely different culture, and a totalitarian government that engineers its own weird reality. Though it musters some surprisingly good health outcomes, you're right that importing their system is a crackpot idea. Behind each of those nice-sounding stats probably lurks 10 drawbacks we don't know about. And we are so different from Cuba in so many ways that it's virtually guaranteed that programs that work in Cuba wouldn't scale up to our giant, multicultural, non-totalitarian country.

What I've been hoping you'll say is "maybe there's more to it than just these outcome and cost stats" because that would establish our common ground. I balk at importing Europe's health care system on the basis of those stats, for similar reasons. Quick summaries of outcome statistics don't do justice to what I'm sure is a complex reality, and to be frank I haven't seen any single-payer champions go much deeper than "Europe is better! At half the cost!" European countries are much smaller than ours--more comparable to one of our states. They're poorer, and they're more culturally homogeneous. Though governments don't tend to be totalitarian, citizens have a different history and different relationship with the government than we do.

I suspect the extra money we spend on health care buys us benefits that don't show up in simple life expectancy stats--such as freedom to sue, for example. And I suspect that solutions that work well in small, homogeneous European countries wouldn't scale up well to ours. Is that sounding more rational?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

AustinRoth — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 21:16:22 -0000

Kathy -

Yes, she is coming home Thursday!!

YEAH!!

And If you didn&#39t catch the initial update from a few days ago (the one I referenced to Dorian) here it is - Victoria update.

BTW - when does your new doggie come home?

;)

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 21:07:44 -0000

Dr J,

I have no inclination or disinclination for the Cuban system. I have not studied the Cuban system, know nothing about the Cuban system, and never thought about the Cuban system. I'm not balking at it, I'm not jumping at it. What I know is that you are trying to play some kind of game with me here about Cuba's health care system or political system or social system or economic system or SOMETHING. And I still don't know exactly what it is, but I'm getting tired of it. Stop trying to maneuver me and manipulate me into giving you some answer that you have in mind which you can then use to prove whatever point it is that you have in mind, if indeed you do have one.

I don't have the patience of a saint, Dr J, and you are starting to SERIOUSLY annoy me. As my father used to say, piss.or.get.off.the.pot.If you have something to say, SAY.IT.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Gootmud — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:45:03 -0000

Kathy, we're talking about health care systems, not political systems. I've seen you advocate importing European health care, but I haven't seen you suggest we drag their parliamentary governments (or monarchies) along too. We can copy the health care and leave the politics.

And in terms of health care systems, Cuba's has much to recommend it. Government pays 90.7% of all health care costs, more than any country in Europe (though Luxembourg at 90.6% is a close second). The mortality rate due to cancer is 129 per 100,000 people, compared to 134 in the US, 141 in Germany, 143 in Spain. Life expectancy at birth is 68, only 7% behind Sweden. Their infant mortality rate is the same as the UK's. They have 59 doctors per 10,000 people, more than twice the US's 26. Yet they spend only 7.1% of GDP on health care, less than any western European country and only half as much as the US.

Cuba's system isn't perfect, but the outcome numbers look pretty good, and the cost numbers look phenomenal. These numbers say it's a great position for us to build from--especially since we have so many more resources to apply to the job.

Yet whereas you regard importing a European system based on cost and outcome numbers to be the only rational choice, importing the Cuban one based on the same analysis is silly and crackpot? There's a stark contradiction here. What's making you balk at the Cuban option?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:21:55 -0000

Health care in Europe costs less than America for outcomes that are at least as good, therefore there&#39s no rational argument for not adopting their system. By those standards, Cuba looks not only a little better than Europe but a lot better. So why shouldn&#39t we adopt their system wholesale, whatever it is?

Their health care system looks better, not their political system. I really and truly am not understanding your logic here, Dr J, and even though I could not disagree more with your worldview, I have never understood you to be silly, or a crackpot.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Dr J — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:55:31 -0000

The World Health Organization&#39s site has a searchable database of all manner of figures on health care availability, spending, outcomes and so on, by country and by year. That made me an instant expert on Cuba :-) and can do the same for you.

I&#39m merely reapplying the same reasoning I keep hearing from you and others: Health care in Europe costs less than America for outcomes that are at least as good, therefore there&#39s no rational argument for not adopting their system. By those standards, Cuba looks not only a little better than Europe but a lot better. So why shouldn&#39t we adopt their system wholesale, whatever it is?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:35:37 -0000

Thank you for the clarification. With the caveat that I would have to do the research to answer your question more substantively (I don&#39t take your statements about comparative health outcomes and costs between Europe and Cuba on faith, for example), my first thought would be that the comparison is less relevant for health care reform in the United States than is the fact that Europeans still pay much less for health care than Americans do, even if it&#39s correct that Cubans pay less for health care and have European-style outcomes (which I doubt, frankly).

I&#39m still not sure if this answers your question, but I&#39m trying.

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

Dr J — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:22:16 -0000

I meant to ask why is health care more expensive in Europe than in Cuba, and why you&#39re advocating that we adopt the European model rather than the Cuban one?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:17:38 -0000

AR, I just saw this and obviusly it refers to some personal good news, but I don&#39t know what it is. You must have posted a comment that I didn&#39t see. Anyway, I don&#39t want you to think I&#39m ignoring the good news, whatever it is. I just hadn&#39t heard about it.

Does it have something to do with your daughter? Is she coming home?

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:12:39 -0000

You asked why Europe is more expensive than Cuba. I assumed you were asking me why Europe is considered a more desirable place to live than Cuba is (since I couldn&#39t, and still can&#39t, figure out any other point behind the question) -- hence my answer. Cuba: unbearable heat and scary insects. Europe: Normal, civilized four-season weather and just the insects I&#39m used to (and grudgingly accept the existence of).

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 17:54:13 -0000

I have now read the initial update, and that is great news, AR. I'm sure your whole family must be over the moon.

As for doggie, I don't have one yet, but here is a leading candidate:

http://www.petfinder.com/pe...

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 17:18:01 -0000

AR,

Read the update, I definitely had not seen that before. And it's such great news. If I'm remembering correctly, this is much more and faster progress than you had dared to hope for initially. I'm very happy for all of you.

As for doggie, it'll be a while, still. I'm being extremely careful about my choice this time, because I made some hasty, heart-overrules-head decisions in the past. Of course, I was on the rebound then, but still, I want to be cautious and realistic about what dog qualities and characteristics will fit my lifestyle and physical limitations.

I talked to Maggie (my daughter) about it, she is still leery, but here is one funny comment she made: "Mommy, what are you going to do when it's icy outside? You know how much trouble you have keeping your balance on the ice even w/o a dog!"

The sad part is, she's right. :-(

I just have to find a small dog, gentle, walks well on leash, and gets along with cats. It is surprisingly hard to find all of those in one dog. But here is a leading candidate:

http://www.petfinder.com/pe...

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

AustinRoth — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 16:16:22 -0000

Kathy -

Yes, she is coming home Thursday!!

YEAH!!

And If you didn't catch the initial update from a few days ago (the one I referenced to Dorian) here it is - Victoria update.

BTW - when does your new doggie come home?

;)

Re: Quote of the Day: Where Is America’s Partisan Political Ugliness Heading?

kathykattenburg — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 15:21:55 -0000

Health care in Europe costs less than America for outcomes that are at least as good, therefore there's no rational argument for not adopting their system. By those standards, Cuba looks not only a little better than Europe but a lot better. So why shouldn't we adopt their system wholesale, whatever it is?

Their health care system looks better, not their political system. I really and truly am not understanding your logic here, Dr J, and even though I could not disagree more with your worldview, I have never understood you to be silly, or a crackpot.