The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Relationships are funny things…

Re: Relationships are funny things…

FuzzyFace — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:50:26 -0000

I don't know. I don't feel like taking the chance. This is hardly his only troublesome association, although it is among the worst. I'm not crazy about people like Zbigniew Brzezinski getting back into power, either. Obama now is on my 'to vote against' list. I expect to be part of a strong majority of Pennsylvania primary voters who push Hillary back up.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

pacatrue — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:39:01 -0000

Indeed, it is a big influence, fuzzyface. Have you seen any evidence in Obama yet that he thinks God should damn America?

Re: Relationships are funny things…

FuzzyFace — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:39:20 -0000

It's not simply knowing Wright that is the issue. It's that Obama has viewed him as his spiritual advisor for pretty much his entire adult life. Wright married the Obamas, baptized their children, and the Obamas have attended his church regularly. That's not true for the McCain-Hagee relationship or any of the other parallels people have suggested. When Obama went to law school, he apparently took lectures on tape by Wright with him as inspiration. That's an enormous influence.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

T-Steel — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:27:47 -0000

If he were to speak and explain himself with the same eloquence then it would be much less of an issue for me.

My father said pretty much the exact same thing when he read my post. He said Senator Obama went "too political" and should just be "real" with everyone on this issue. Very interesting.

I 'm SO upset that I wasn't able to participate more in this discussion yesterday (was extremely busy). Their has been so many great comments that you all deserve a round of applause!

Re: Relationships are funny things…

EEllis — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:59:13 -0000

T-Steel this was a great post and I think you might be surprised at what people can except in others past. I do think how you speak of your situation is different from the feel I get from the OB campain. If he were to speak and explain himself with the same eloquence then it would be much less of an issue for me. Acting like it shouldn't be a problem, that it is just a smear..............well that's a different thing.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

GeorgeSorwell — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:27:10 -0000

The notion of someone insisting repeatedly that we stay on topic makes me want to ...wait for it...chuckle!!

Re: Relationships are funny things…

elrod — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:26:45 -0000

Great post T-Steel, as always.

Pacatrue,
Thanks for the hat/tip. I've been thinking this over the last few days and I feel increasingly that Obama's relationship with Wright is not troubling at all. I say this because I've researched Wright and TUCC more and I've come to the conclusion that the church is the home of THE black establishment in Chicago and not some radical nutjob haven. Should we question Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey and Tiger Woods' judgment for going to this church and, presumably, listening to this man? I bet Jordan met closely with Wright when Jordan's father was murdered. Is Jordan now some bigot - or at least a man with terrible judgment - because of this?

Also, the UCC is a mostly white denomination, but TUCC is THE flagship church. Rev. Wright has helped mostly white congregations get off their feet throughout the country, including especially in the Midwest. Wright is not defined solely by those sermons on display. And Obama shouldn't be defined by association with a pastor who gives them.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

kritt11 — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:11:09 -0000

Doma's argument makes my point beautifully. I'd rather have the flawed candidate who can compartmentalize (as Clinton did) and run the government competently than the sanitized incompetent we have in office now.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

pacatrue — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:46:57 -0000

T-Steel said in a comment, "I know for a fact that I couldn't run for POTUS. Both of my parents being former Black Panthers? A best friend that served time in prison for gang related activities? Growing up around members of various black nationalist groups? I would be rhetorically flayed alive no matter what I say."

I unfortunately feel he might be right. If so, it's awfully sad. Obviously, I don't know t-steel, but if he were to spend the next 20 years doing all sorts of amazing things but still couldn't be elected to a major office due to his former friends.... That's bad for our nation.

To the Obama/Wright issue, Elrod hinted at this in an earlier post, but there are two separate matters on hand. The first is whether Obama believes / "has internalized" any of these ideas. Obama does have a 15 year or so track record to see if any such beliefs have ever come out. I have seen no evidence that this is the case. People are welcome to present this evidence

The second matter is simply participating in a church in which such beliefs were propogated, and by doing so, supporting it. This is where Obama could take a hit and where T-Steel's post is so relevant. How bad is attending a church in which the preacher sometimes says repugnant things? I can't answer this question for others. One fact finding mission that would be of some use is to simply talk to the several thousand other members of the church. Why do they attend? What do they like and not like about the church? If everyone comes out saying "I love the spiritual guidance in the life of Christ, the social support the church provides, and the donuts before Sunday School," then we can guess this is why Obama was there as well. If everyone attends because of the political awakening going on, then people can justifiably worry more.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

domajot — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:51:03 -0000

All this talk of character flaws and demons needing to be exorcised is leading to a theater of the absurd, where plain old common sense is not given even a walk-on role. No living, breathing human being lives in a world where good and bad are so clearly departmentalized, unless 'bad' is simply and simplistically anything that fails to fit in nicely with one's own judgement.

Since Jesus is not a candidate, whoeve is elected is going to be a mortal human being with his/her share of human flaws. In fact, if Jesus were a candidate, his opponent would probably tear him to shreds for consorting with a prostitute. Compassion for and understanding of the 'wrong' person is apperently now a character flaw.

Scrutiniy is a must, but scrutiny born of pre-judgment and judgment without an appreciation of context is little more than a witch hunt.

Then, too, there are flaws and flaws.
Sexual indiscretions are not on a par with plotting to overthrow the government.

Judging character and its flaws led to Pete Seeger being blacklisted for 17 years, lest the public be exposed to the subversive act of singing folk songs. 'Goodnight, Irene": was that a call to take up arms agaisnt the government?

Common sense calls for keeping a rational perspective and avoiding extreme, across the board judgments..

Re: Relationships are funny things…

kritt11 — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:02:44 -0000

cbpelto--- I guess for me- I look to see if the pol's achievements outweigh their flaws. We can't expect perfection, and many who are drawn to politics are ego-centric narcissists. They adore the attention and praise that power brings, not to mention connections and perks. I'd rather have a womanizer in office than an incompetent.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

JSpencer — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:57:22 -0000

Great post T-Steel. The general inclination of people to categorize and file information according to crisp, concise guidelines tends to ignore many important aspects of the human element, which of course is why we have brains and can use them to think! People here have already echoed some of my own thoughts, so suffice to say, your point is a valid and necessary one, especially for anyone who is quick to buy into a (shallow) judgement of Obama based on all this Wright business. I know several people who would never pass the "vetting test", but who are capable, decent, and utterly trustworthy.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

domajot — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:12:58 -0000

T-Steel,

Your post earned a perfect 10 in my book.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Chuck Pelto — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:00:25 -0000

TO: All
RE: Hey!

Can we please get back ON-TOPIC?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The field behind rhetoric is oft mined with equivocation.]

Re: Relationships are funny things…

ryan — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:57:41 -0000

FuzzyFace: "It is rather difficult to believe that someone to whom he is so close, and has considered his spiritual mentor for so long, will have no influence on his ideas and decisions."

Obama has indicated very clearly that Wright has had a tremendous influence on his life with respect to his teachings on how the Christian life should be lived. He has also been very clear that he does not agree with Wright's more inflammatory statements, and Obama's words and deeds seem to show that to be true.

As TSteel and others in this thread have indicated, all of us associate with people who hold views that wouldn't be popular if posted on youtube. That's life. But another part of life is being able to recognize goodness in people, and to focus on the positive aspects of their personality. Since this discussion is occurring due to the words of a preacher, look at the clearest example from the Bible - Jesus kept company with tax collectors and other less-than-perfect individuals; youtube would not make his life easy were he here today. Maybe Obama secretly holds all of Wright's most controversial beliefs and merely hides that fact so well that his CORE MESSAGE is quite the opposite; however, it seems more likely that he found inspiration in his pastor while disagreeing with some of the things he said.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Chuck Pelto — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:58 -0000

TO: kritt11
RE: Reading/Comprehension Issues?

"If we weed out all of the leaders with character flaws...." -- kritt11

Where did i say anyone with a character flaw is ineligible?

We all have 'flaws'. Some of them are more egregious than others.

Our—the electorate—task is to determine which flaws are less egregious.

The problem is that it seems that only those with REALLY egregious flaws want to become elected officials.

There is something of a difference. Don't you think?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Government has come to be a trade, and is managed solely on commercial principles. A man plunges into politics to make his fortune, and only cares that the world should last his days. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Macan — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:56:53 -0000

kritt11 said: "Yet, he has mismanaged and abused the powers of the presidency, and recklessly disregarded the checks and balances that keep our system healthy."

I would point out that FDR - of sainted memory - was the president who attempted the most reckless overturning of the "checks and balances" of the American system in history when he attempted to expand the Supreme Court with extra justices after 1936 when the Supreme Court struck down some of his initiatives.

FDR also loved reading wiretaps on his political opponents.

Had Bush attempted anything like the sainted FDR he would be damned by the Left as a power-crazed dictator unprecedented in history.

Of course, knowing their history well, no one on the Left would ever say such a thing. :)

Re: Relationships are funny things…

kritt11 — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:46:06 -0000

cbpelto- I could not disagree more. If we weed out all of the leaders with character flaws, we would have weeded out---Thomas Jefferson (longterm affair with slave), Ben Franklin (notorious womanizer), Martin Luther King (cheated on his wife), FDR (likewise unfaithful to Eleanor), JFK (serial womanizer), RFK (ditto), LBJ (ditto), Newt Gingrich (who might have deserved to be weeded out!) The list goes on and on.

I really don't care if someone has an affair as long as they can compartmentalize and still run the country effectively. Yes, Clinton was/is a womanizer, but he also had substantial achievements in office. We now have a faithful husband in office who claims to be morally upright. Yet, he has mismanaged and abused the powers of the presidency, and recklessly disregarded the checks and balances that keep our system healthy.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Jill Miller Zimon — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:40:36 -0000

I love your post, T-Steel. I think you write what a lot of us feel and some of us have been trying to say though maybe in not nearly as eloquent a way or in a way that can reach as many people. I've written about it as being this discovering of whether or not one has come to diverge so much that you can no longer embrace something or someone. You add that we can have that divergence and still, acceptably, continue to have a relationship.

But, we must know all that, because when, as you say, you get to the political sphere, beware how others are going to judge it. I don't know what more we can do, except try to be consistent and sincere.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

mikkel — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:32:24 -0000

Yeah George, some people have some very serious qualms about McCain.

Anyway, it is one thing to judge people on their personality flaws. I will always consider Clinton to be the most disappointing president I think, just because he had everything going right for him and let it slip away.

But maybe I'm weird, I actually want people that have "questionable" associations from the past -- maybe even questionable actions -- as long as it is clear that they have learned from those experiences. If every one were picture perfect, there wouldn't really be a need for government at all. But most of the problems in the country are easily reflected in the radical, the criminal, the hypocrite. I don't see how people can very well expect to make things better, unless they understand and respect the mindsets of the people that either actively make things worse, or at least are just caught up in the worst aspects...especially if they then use that information to try and figure out how to make things better and confront their "questionable" friends with the new way forward.

I've learned more to appreciate who I am, and understood the mindset of a lot of the downtrodden through unsavory characters (especially the extremely intelligent ones because it makes me question why I am like I am and they are different) than any one else. I think that what Wright said reflects the underlying fears and thoughts of a large number of people (and not just about Black/White relations. If you just substituted poor and rich every time he mentioned race then a ton of people would agree.) and I've found that the people I've talked to that are criminals have the same rationale and downtrodden outlook as the people that I know that just meandering through life and not meeting their potential in the now stereotypical suburban blight way...the consumerist way that has now gotten our country into deep economical trouble.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Chuck Pelto — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:31:13 -0000

TO: Jim_Satterfield
RE: Hagee, Anyone?

"And what about McCain's relationship with Hagee...." -- Jim_Satterfield

Based on your link to a Salon hit-piece on Hagee, I think a discussion of his positions would be (1) interesting, (2) educational and (3) fun.

Maybe you could get one of the co-authors here to instigate it. But, in this thread, I think it is non sequitur.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. What can you say about someone whose only defense against six rounds at close range fired by a maniac with a revolver while standing in the pulpit was a Bible held out by the minister.....and every fired round missed.....

[Coincidence, n., When God works a miracle and doesn't get the credit.]

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Chuck Pelto — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:55:51 -0000

TO: aredmindinabluestate
RE: Disassociations

"If I disassociated myself from every friend and relative who is a bit crazy, I'd be a lonely, lonely, man." -- aredmindinabluestate

I don't think we're called upon to disassociate ourselves from true friends and real relations. Rather, we're obliged to help them.

We're obliged, by blood, to help our relations.

The challenge is in choosing our friends wisely.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. -- Thomas Jefferson]

P.S. The good [Democrat] president was VERY careful in choosing his friends. We should emulate that.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Chuck Pelto — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:50:22 -0000

TO: GeorgeSorwell
RE: Sure Think....

"I wonder if anyone wants to defend the performance of George W Bush? Or the performance of Republicans in power? " -- GeorgeSorwell

....but it is non sequitur to this thread. Perhaps if you got someone to start it on some SPECIFIC topic.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[When in a bad position, try to change the subject.]

Re: Relationships are funny things…

Tony Iovino — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:36:58 -0000

I'm a conservative Republican who has only voted for two democrats ever--Jimmy Carter and Eliot Spitzer--both of which I regretted. Still, I think Obama is OK here, unless we see video of him cheering while Wright espouses hate, bigotry and idiocy.

We all have friends and relatives who say outrageous things from time to time. I won't throw any of my friends under the bus and I don't expect Obama or any other politician to do so, either. If they aren't on your staff, then just tell me you don't agree with their position or statements and show me that you don't agree by your actions, and as far as I'm concerned the issue is over.

If I disassociated myself from every friend and relative who is a bit crazy, I'd be a lonely, lonely, man.

Re: Relationships are funny things…

GeorgeSorwell — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:16:46 -0000

I wonder if anyone wants to defend the performance of George W Bush? Or the performance of Republicans in power?

I wonder if anyone has any qualms about the character of John McCain?