The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:57:58 -0000

I thought you&#39d get a kick out of "Godly atheist". I meant that as a compliment and exactly as you interpretted it. I too, respect you and others like you. There are many others (especially in academia as ProfElwood pointed out) that do have that religion of anti-God. There are also many religious people out there with a religion of anti-atheist. Hate belongs no where within Christianity. If you see a Christian saying ANYTHING with a hateful heart towards any group that does not prescribe - then they are doing God a disservice.

Regardless, you are my American brother - and I love all my American brothers and sisters.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:57:58 -0000

I thought you'd get a kick out of "Godly atheist". I meant that as a compliment and exactly as you interpretted it. I too, respect you and others like you. There are many others (especially in academia as ProfElwood pointed out) that do have that religion of anti-God. There are also many religious people out there with a religion of anti-atheist. Hate belongs no where within Christianity. If you see a Christian saying ANYTHING with a hateful heart towards any group that does not prescribe - then they are doing God a disservice.

Regardless, you are my American brother - and I love all my American brothers and sisters.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

ProfElwood — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:02:18 -0000

In the last few months, I&#39ve become aware of the progress of Atheism in science and universities. There&#39s great yelling and gnashing of teeth when a wordless cross is displayed in the desert, yet there are professors at state universities who openly harass students in many classes, which is a clear violation of both the purpose and text of the first amendment. Also, in Seeger v United States, religion and atheism are considered equivalent, at least for the purpose of conscientious objectors, and therefore by implication, cannot be preached in classrooms and schools.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

ProfElwood — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:02:18 -0000

In the last few months, I've become aware of the progress of Atheism in science and universities. There's great yelling and gnashing of teeth when a wordless cross is displayed in the desert, yet there are professors at state universities who openly harass students in many classes, which is a clear violation of both the purpose and text of the first amendment. Also, in Seeger v United States, religion and atheism are considered equivalent, at least for the purpose of conscientious objectors, and therefore by implication, cannot be preached in classrooms and schools.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:34:28 -0000

"Godly Atheist"
Interesting term.

Not 100% what you meant by that, but for myself, I agree with you if you are saying I believe in many of the morality lessons that Christianity teaches, while not believing in divinity.

I also respect the right of those who do believe to believe, feel that religion does have a place in public life, and have no agenda to eliminate God from every corner of the government.

Also, I NEVER capitalize "atheist" (except as the first word of a sentence) when referring to myself or my beliefs. That is because I believe there are two fundamentally different types of atheists - "atheists" like myself that simply do not believe, and "Atheists" who HAVE a religion of anti-God.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:27:42 -0000

I didn&#39t take it negatively, AR. That statement was aimed more toward KK.
And I remember (and respect) your atheism. You&#39re a "Godly Atheist" if I remember correctly.

The "literalism" that KK refers to, stems from my statement that people make religion. They take the initial prescept and distort it and interpret it to fit THEIR ideals - not the ideals of the God they claim to worship. That, to me, isn&#39t literalism. It&#39s perversion of faiths.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:40:48 -0000

JD -

Do not take my characterization of being a literalist as any kind of a criticism. There are many ways different types of Christians interpret the Bible. Nothing negative was meant by me at all.

As to what I consider a fair statement on what God did, well, being an atheist, I have a different view on that than you, obviously.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:34:28 -0000

"Godly Atheist"
Interesting term.

Not 100% what you meant by that, but for myself, I agree with you if you are saying I believe in many of the morality lessons that Christianity teaches, while not believing in divinity.

I also respect the right of those who do believe to believe, feel that religion does have a place in public life, and have no agenda to eliminate God from every corner of the government.

Also, I NEVER capitalize "atheist" (except as the first word of a sentence) when referring to myself or my beliefs. That is because I believe there are two fundamentally different types of atheists - "atheists" like myself that simply do not believe, and "Atheists" who HAVE a religion of anti-God.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 11:27:42 -0000

I didn't take it negatively, AR. That statement was aimed more toward KK.
And I remember (and respect) your atheism. You're a "Godly Atheist" if I remember correctly.

The "literalism" that KK refers to, stems from my statement that people make religion. They take the initial prescept and distort it and interpret it to fit THEIR ideals - not the ideals of the God they claim to worship. That, to me, isn't literalism. It's perversion of faiths.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:40:48 -0000

JD -

Do not take my characterization of being a literalist as any kind of a criticism. There are many ways different types of Christians interpret the Bible. Nothing negative was meant by me at all.

As to what I consider a fair statement on what God did, well, being an atheist, I have a different view on that than you, obviously.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:38:25 -0000

Watch out, Austin...
Thanks for "doing my homework for me".

How dare you help me prove her to be the biased partisan liberal she is!!!!!
You should feel ashamed (sarcasm).

She says "Benjamin Frankin, Okay.... Alexander Hamilton, maybe okay."

But she still REFUSES to acknowlege that the Founding Fathers thought this way. It doesn&#39t gel with her liberal world-view.

Once again.... I do not propose a theocracy. I wouldn&#39t want to live in America if it were one.
I merely want the liberal whackjobs like Kathy to acknowlege the fact that God was not intended to be removed from our culture or government - He is the core behind the Constitution. They only inteneded religious tolerance with no prescribed religion by Government.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:33:24 -0000

Literalism.... Geesh, you guys are driving me crazy with that.

When God created man in His own image, did that imply that god had fingers, arms, lips, and hair?
No. I&#39m pretty sure God is a spirit. He created man in His own image, which is a spirit - our souls.

Would you consider that a fair statement?

Ok. I&#39m not sure what was on earth at the time of Adam. Got created man. But he created Adam with a soul - the beginning of His people on earth. The Jewish lineage begins with Adam. Whomever Cain took as a wife was either a sister or one of the other created beings on earth. Who knows.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:27:43 -0000

Now look closely, Kathy. At the end of every quote is the source. Most (if not all of these sources) can be found at the Library of Congress. Feel free to check them out.

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams&#39 quotes taken OUT of context!

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer&#39s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin&#39s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam&#39s Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” - Farewell Address 1778

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:21:16 -0000

Homosexuals now have the right to love whom they choose. They now have the right to live with one another. They now have the right to survivorship through wills. They have every right to "love".

But as I said countless times to you....
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING GAYS LOVE to you.
This is about a larger agenda, and same-sex marriage is merely a piece of it.

You continue to not address it. You, yourself may not intend to remove faith from our culture, but you are helping in that cause. It is the end-all goal for humanists like yourself - the removal of God from our culture.

Your cause will not cease until Christians, once again, are thrown into furnaces and animal cages. Your humanistic kind was in charge of things when those things were done - much like the Nazis were in charge during the mindless annihalation of 6 million Jews during WWII.

Humanism will cause nothing but harm to our society - and you are one of it&#39s warriors.
I&#39m one of the warriors on the other side - and I will not yield.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:14:12 -0000

"The point is, gay and lesbian Jews are just as much Jews and just as much a part of synagogue life as anyone else"

Correct. As are gays and lesbians who are Christians. All Christians are guilty of sin. The trick is to recognize it and try to depart from it, then move on to fix the next sinful condition. We all suffer from that weakness. You, however, condone remaining in a sinful state. As a Jew, that may be acceptable - I do not know. As a Christian, it is not.

Yes, Kathy, "MORONIC" statements. No one here is defending slavery or lynchings. I do not care what happened in the past with those issues, because it is ALWAYS wrong. It does not apply to this subject. You are spinning. Do not sit there and attempt to spin a web of words implying that lynching and slavery is supported by "tradionalists". Of course, that&#39s what you do every time - if you can&#39t make a point, you spin something else. Perhaps there is a job in DC for you after all. You&#39d fit the current typical political scheme perfectly.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:56:36 -0000

I wasn&#39t agreeing with his position; I was simply saying his quotes are factual and accurate (pretty much) is all.

And divided on religion? You bet. There is strong evidence that GW, Franklin and Jefferson were not Christians, although they believed in some form of God or Higher Power. Well, except maybe Jefferson. He very well may have been an atheist. Certainly Adams was a devout Christian, though, as were other Founding Fathers (his son is considered an &#39early important figure&#39, but does not normally get Founding Father status).

However, these were educated, cultured and ambitious men. Even if they did not believe, or had doubts, or had what for the times would have been unacceptable beliefs, they knew what to say to present a veneer of Christianity to the masses, while using just the correct key-words to signal their true thoughts to like-minded men.

"In the Kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is King." Desiderius Erasmus "in regione caecorum rex est luscus"

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

kathykattenburg — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:42:49 -0000

AR, you really shouldn&#39t be doing JD&#39s homework for him.

The John Adams quote does not surprise me. As I&#39ve mentioned to JD, John Adams was not a believer in separation of church and state.

John Quincy Adams was John Adams&#39 son, of course. Was he actually a Founding Father?

Benjamin Franklin, okay.

Alexander Hamilton, maybe okay.

Where are Thomas Jefferson and James Madison here? They were the big champions of religious freedom and keeping religion separate from government.

As I also mentioned in one of my comments to JD, the Founding Fathers were just as divided on issues of religious freedom and religion&#39s place in public life as we are today. The point, I think, is that the view that ultimately won out was the one proffered by Jefferson and Madison.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:38:25 -0000

Watch out, Austin...
Thanks for "doing my homework for me".

How dare you help me prove her to be the biased partisan liberal she is!!!!!
You should feel ashamed (sarcasm).

She says "Benjamin Frankin, Okay.... Alexander Hamilton, maybe okay."

But she still REFUSES to acknowlege that the Founding Fathers thought this way. It doesn't gel with her liberal world-view.

Once again.... I do not propose a theocracy. I wouldn't want to live in America if it were one.
I merely want the liberal whackjobs like Kathy to acknowlege the fact that God was not intended to be removed from our culture or government - He is the core behind the Constitution. They only inteneded religious tolerance with no prescribed religion by Government.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:33:24 -0000

Literalism.... Geesh, you guys are driving me crazy with that.

When God created man in His own image, did that imply that god had fingers, arms, lips, and hair?
No. I'm pretty sure God is a spirit. He created man in His own image, which is a spirit - our souls.

Would you consider that a fair statement?

Ok. I'm not sure what was on earth at the time of Adam. Got created man. But he created Adam with a soul - the beginning of His people on earth. The Jewish lineage begins with Adam. Whomever Cain took as a wife was either a sister or one of the other created beings on earth. Who knows.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:27:43 -0000

Now look closely, Kathy. At the end of every quote is the source. Most (if not all of these sources) can be found at the Library of Congress. Feel free to check them out.

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” - Farewell Address 1778

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:21:16 -0000

Homosexuals now have the right to love whom they choose. They now have the right to live with one another. They now have the right to survivorship through wills. They have every right to "love".

But as I said countless times to you....
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING GAYS LOVE to you.
This is about a larger agenda, and same-sex marriage is merely a piece of it.

You continue to not address it. You, yourself may not intend to remove faith from our culture, but you are helping in that cause. It is the end-all goal for humanists like yourself - the removal of God from our culture.

Your cause will not cease until Christians, once again, are thrown into furnaces and animal cages. Your humanistic kind was in charge of things when those things were done - much like the Nazis were in charge during the mindless annihalation of 6 million Jews during WWII.

Humanism will cause nothing but harm to our society - and you are one of it's warriors.
I'm one of the warriors on the other side - and I will not yield.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

JeffersonDavis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 02:14:12 -0000

"The point is, gay and lesbian Jews are just as much Jews and just as much a part of synagogue life as anyone else"

Correct. As are gays and lesbians who are Christians. All Christians are guilty of sin. The trick is to recognize it and try to depart from it, then move on to fix the next sinful condition. We all suffer from that weakness. You, however, condone remaining in a sinful state. As a Jew, that may be acceptable - I do not know. As a Christian, it is not.

Yes, Kathy, "MORONIC" statements. No one here is defending slavery or lynchings. I do not care what happened in the past with those issues, because it is ALWAYS wrong. It does not apply to this subject. You are spinning. Do not sit there and attempt to spin a web of words implying that lynching and slavery is supported by "tradionalists". Of course, that's what you do every time - if you can't make a point, you spin something else. Perhaps there is a job in DC for you after all. You'd fit the current typical political scheme perfectly.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:39:04 -0000

I have to come to JD&#39s defense here.

Every quote he provided is a well-known, fully sourced and completely documented quote, as he stated. But, if you really want some proof, here you go:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." TO THE OFFICERS OF THE FIRST BRIGADE OF THE THIRD DIVISION OF THE MILITIA OF MASSACHUSETTS, OCTOBER 11, 1798, John Adams

Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer&#39s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? An oration delivered before the inhabitants of the town of Newburyport, By John Quincy Adams

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin, Speech to the Constitutional Convention (28 June 1787) (Original manuscript with quote, Library of Congress)

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem the Constitution a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests" (actually not 100% verifiable to AH so credited to &#39Caesar&#39, although very likely was AH. Also slightly misquoted) Essays on the Constitution of the United States, Caesar” The Letters: II

That is enough, I would hope, to show his quotes are indeed factual and sourceable. Even the slight misquote in no way altered its meaning.

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

kathykattenburg — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:11:13 -0000

... or he took a non-human for a wife.

Well, you know, there were giants in the earth in those days. [Gen.6:4]

Re: Same Sex Marriage Rights Defeated In Maine

AustinRoth — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:24:17 -0000

That is kind of the question. Who (or what) did Cain take as his wife? If there is not an &#39unlisted&#39 sister, so to speak, the only other answers are either that God created more than Adam and Eve, or he took a non-human for a wife. I can see no other options for a Biblical literalist.