The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

GreenDreams — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:42:42 -0000

Well? Want to get practical here? Or are we too enamored of these paper and cloth objects to think about trivial matters like public health?

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

GreenDreams — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:30:24 -0000

Well, now. I guess no one has bothered to consider a couple of points. First, it's illegal to burn trash in Denver. I think perhaps the "proper flag disposal" thing is a bit out of date. We actually don't need the air pollution, however patriotic. I'm not saying that the flags were going to be disposed of, just pointing out that burning 125,000 flags to show respect for their symbolism isn't really that great an idea. Which brings me to point two. Do you want to wave a recycled flag? Not refurbished or sanitized in any way; just picked up from the seat at a convention and given to boy scouts (or whatever). I don't think that's an especially great idea either.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

StockBoySF — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 05:17:13 -0000

The real issues are the economy, education, war, etc. I think we need to continue to focus on these. But our flag is America's most sacred symbol and it needs to be treated with respect. Like Jazz, I agree that if someone wants to burn the flag as part of a protest, then that is their right. Though I would hope that anyone who wants to burn the flag in a protest will only do so after much consideration.

I read the update where the person says that flags have been there for over a week and would have been thrown away. The question I have is why wasn't the trash picked up sooner? Don't they pick up trash more often than every week or two? Or was the trash picked up within the last week and the flags remained? I find it hard to believe that convention officials would actually leave trash sitting in dumpsters for over a week in the hot summer sun without having it picked up.

At any rate I think the Republicans are throwing our stories to raise the ire against Democrats and throw up a smokescreen around their own failings. The GOP so desperately needs to make this campaign about why the Dems can't lead the country.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

nepr — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 02:20:39 -0000

I wonder...

Is there a right to dispose of ones property, even throw it in a dumpster, if you don't need it anymore?

If I was to sit in my room, with my crayons, and draw an United Stated of America flag on a piece of paper, would I have created an object of reverence?

Some people who burn USA flags are just practicing cultural vandalism, but some are asking, "What's more important, the flag, or my right to burn it?"

Does someone actually have a right, when merely exercising it exposes them to scorn, ridicule and sanction?

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

elrod — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:56:53 -0000

Jazz,
You should include the info from Clarissa in her post above. She apparently spoke with some DNC people in Denver today. It was worker who tried to stir up trouble by pushing this bogus story to the GOP. The flags were awaiting transfer; they were not headed for the dumpster.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

elrod — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:30:59 -0000

If the DNC had, in fact, planned to throw away thousands of flags then it would be a big story. But it's quite obvious that that isn't what happened.

I'm hoping the DNC takes legal action against the McCain campaign for stealing the flags.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

markg8 — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:52:19 -0000

The US government is about to take over Fannie May and Freddie Mac incurring $5 trillion dollars in mortgage debt, a whole lot of it bad thanks to Republican fiscal policy, their Vice Presidential candidate is stonewalling and trying to scuttle an investigation into what clearly looks like her abuse of power and what does McCain's campaign come up with? This stupidity. Unf*ckingbelievable.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

elrod — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:28:55 -0000

The Fox News "response to the DNC" is BS. The flags were in the loading dock area of Invesco Field awaiting transfer to the VFW and cemeteries. The term "near a dumpster" means that a dumpster is in the loading dock area. Well, duh. There's always a dumpster near a loading dock.

There is nothing odd about the flags being there. It takes a long time to dispose of that many flags if you want to do it properly. If the Democrats wanted to throw away 125,000 flags they would have thrown them away last week with everything else.

This is a disgusting story from the GOP and doesn't pass the laugh test.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Guest — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:09:09 -0000

We should just forget about the past eight years, roll over, play dead and let them take over the county again because they love Jesus and America more than any of us ever could.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

elrod — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:07:41 -0000

Reading the back and forth and looking at the pictures, it's obvious that these flags were intended to be given to some organization to be disposed of properly (VFW?). The only problem is that they had not yet made the arrangements and were still there at the stadium. The presence of Hefty bags does not mean they were going to be trashed as they would have already been throw away with everything else. Being rolled up properly they were obviously awaiting pickup from somebody. At worst, some staffer failed to follow through and make the arrangements.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

ktkeith — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:03:18 -0000

Note that the two different stories are not in conflict - and the photos you show support the Democratic version.

There may well have been flags in trash bags in Dumpsters after the convention. With tens of thousands of people in attendance and huge amounts of decorations, there were likely thousands of pounds of trinkets and displays to be disposed of, no doubt including many flags. Maybe you'd like somebody to go through all the trash from a convention hall and an outdoor football stadium by hand, separate out anything that looks like a flag, and hold a ritual pyre for it, but I doubt anyone did that and I can't see anything wrong with that. (And do you think that's what the GOP did with all their trash after their convention?) It doesn't upset me that flags may have gotten swept up and thrown away after a political convention, and I would assume that's exactly what happened after each and every political convention that has been held by every US party in history so far.

But the flags in the black bags shown in your post are obviously brand new and unused. They are clean, rolled neatly, and tied in identical bundles. It doesn't matter what kinds of bags they are stored in (you can call those "trash bags" if you like, but they don't have trash in them; why not just call them "flag bags"?). It's obvious those flags were leftovers from the convention, and I would assume they were going to be used at some later function, if only for reasons of expense.

Note also that it's obvious the GOP did not "rescue" any flags from actual trash bags - all the flags they show are neat and brand new. Which means the GOP also allowed the used post-convention flags to go out in the trash, after making a stink about finding them. They simply stole the clean, unused ones for their own use and then bragged about it.

For God's sake, grow up and find something real to talk about.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

jonimp9 — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:48:52 -0000

jwest: "letting the rest of the voters choose the next president."

Why don't we let your comment develop into its logical conclusion. You say this like there is a way to not let the rest of the voters choose the next president. As if it was your and only your voted that decided. Show me a case when a presidential election was decided by 1 vote. If that were to happen, how many recounts do you think there would be. It would be even worse than the partisan debacle in 2000 (and I don't have to remind anyone about the hanging chad debate, as if something that subjective could be done in a non-partisan matter.)

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

onleyone — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:44:12 -0000

jwest:

you may not intend to insult, but over here in my world, even your last comment to jazz is thick with condescension. i'm fairly certain he grasps what you're saying; i believe he's simply taking the longer, less cynical (i think you confuse that with "less realistic") view of the american political landscape. and i don't care how right you think you are, patronizing an honorable opponent is reprehensible. spiteful and mean is what it is, no matter what side of the aisle you fancy.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

jwest — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:24:59 -0000

Onleyone,

That “put your big boy pants on” term is (in my world, at least) a harmless way of saying that it’s decision time.

It’s a bit like “bite my fat white ass”, only with a little more finesse.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Jazz — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:22:13 -0000

Post updated with more from the original author. This is looking worse for the Dems in terms of incompetence on the part of some low level functionary, but also a definite chance that a GOP operative tried to amplify that to make some hay out of the story.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

jwest — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:19:12 -0000

So long, Jazz.

It appears I’ve been talking so far over your head that you’re getting a neck ache just trying to keep up.

When you calm down, try to think through the concept that was spelled out to you. Once you grasp what has been said, I’ll be here to accept your apology.

You’re a bright guy, Jazz. You’re just not used to thinking at this level.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

onleyone — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:13:10 -0000

jwest:

i respect the views expressed in many of your posts, so don't take this the wrong way... but as far as jazz's "personal attacks", you condescended to tell Cfpete to, "Put your big boy pants on and pick one [Column A or Column B]." now, i don't know what you consider an "attack", but if that wasn't a jab at someone's character, it was still more than a little d!ckish.

http://xrl.in/erp

of course, what do i know? as far as you're concerned, i obviously haven't manned up enough to put on my "big boy pants" either.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Jazz — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:09:50 -0000

Goodbye jwest. We're done. It's been a trip. You don't understand democracy and are not a serious person in this sort of debate. I'm not "letting the rest of the voters choose the next president." I'm voting for my choice. You're not removed enough from your dedication to the GOP to see that, and see any vote for Barr as damage to McCain. I can't help you further. Adios.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

jwest — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:44:26 -0000

Ouch!

Jazz, you certainly can take a lot of words to totally miss my point.

Of course you can vote for whoever you want. If you think that Bugs Bunny embodies the qualities you want in a president, write him in.

But it does not take away from the reality of the situation. By not being a part of the decision between Barak Obama and John McCain (WHOEVER YOU VOTE FOR), you are deciding to let the rest of the voters choose the next president.

This isn’t a partisan call for you to go one way or another.

This is a lesson on the difference between people who take on the responsibility of making tough choices with imperfect options and those who sit on the sidelines.

Go back, read this comment again, and see if you can comprehend a simple point of reality versus idealism.

(Oh, and try to keep the personal attacks under control)

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Jazz — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:36:47 -0000

You're obviously welcome to that view, Chris, but this is one that I don't personally feel is a distraction. I may be old fashioned, but if you're going to order thousands of flags, I think it's your reponsibility to dispose of them properly and respectfully, only if they are used, soiled, tattered, etc. beyond usefulness, and otherwise they should be made available to others. The Democrats may in fact have taken the steps to do this, and if so, good for them! I'm trying to provide all of the information to get to the truth. It's an issue for me, though I understand and accept that it's not an issue for everyone. As I said, I'm an old veteran and probably old fashioned.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

ChrisWWW — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:32:07 -0000

jazz,
Great comment.

I just want to say, this is the sort of faux outrages that distract us from the real issues facing this country. We have a crumbling infrastructure, schools falling further behind global standards, an economy left shaky from years of questionable lending that wouldn't have been possible without deregulation, skyrocketing healthcare costs, two wars that seem impossible to "win" by any reasonable measure....

...and yet we're talking about what happens to a bunch of campaign props likely made in China. God, we're all morons.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

onleyone — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:30:59 -0000

bob dole/kodos: Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!

http://tinyurl.com/6gfvce

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Jazz — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:24:21 -0000

jwest, I wasn't originally going to answer you any more, and then I thought about doing an entire new post on this. (Which you don't merit.) But I will take the time to do one more answer here before we most likely end our political discussions here. You can be as liberal or conservative as you like. You can be the most hard core partisan for either party that you care to be. (And I certainly refute your claims about "tiniest bit right of center" and find you to be a partisan GOP hack in my experience.) The entire point here goes well beyond Democrats or Republicans or Libertarians or liberals or conservatives or moderates. The only point of significance is that you don't have the authority to pass judgment about how any other individual citizen casts their vote if they cast it in good conscience for the candidate they feel best represents their interests.

It may come as a surprise to you, but we still have an active Communist Party in this country. Most of us despise them and never agree with their views, but in this American system they have a right to their views and to vote for their candidates. And each one of their votes counts for exactly as much as yours. That's how it is in the actual America, rather than the two party monopoly you picture as America.

Each person gets the chance to cast their vote for the person (even a write-in not even on the ballot) who they feel will provide the leadership and direction they desire for their community, state and nation. If an insufficient number of other people agree, those candidates will not be elected. If their view *never* gains enough numbers to elect anyone to any office, that doesn't matter either. They have registered their preference, on the record, for the direction they would personally like to see their government going in. And who knows? If enough people notice those votes, in the future it may take hold and grow into a successful movement. If not, then it won't. Again, it doesn't matter.

When Ross Perot ran for president the first time, more than one in five Americans cast their vote for him. He didn't capture a single state, but does that mean that one fifth of the country "sat it out" or "wouldn't make a choice" or whatever other assenine way you choose to phrase it? Or was it a significant group of voices that made the two dominant parties take notice? I say the latter.

But even if my vote was cast for somebody whose only platform item was to dig more canals, then it's MY vote. You have no right to it and you have no right to denigrate it as an invalid voice in the political spectrum. Bob Barr isnt' going to win this election, but he'll draw about 5% of the vote in a number of states from people who care about REAL conservative values and "small L" libertarian values. Those are real voices of people with real concerns who want their voices heard.

It's not MY freaking job to elect YOUR candidate. It's YOUR freaking job to convince enough other people to vote for your candidate that he wins. What we do with our votes is none of your business, nor are you in any position to sit up upon your high partisan hack horse and claim that we are "voting present" which is insulting, assenine, ignorant and demonstrates that you don't understand the basic concepts of democracy (with a "small D" just so you don't explode at the mention of anyone not a Republican) well enough to be taken seriously in a discussion of government or politics. And as long as you maintain this ignorant, insulting position, our conversation is concluded.

And for the record, just in reference to your "Jazz is so in love with the Democrats" comment, I have never once in my entire life registered as a big "D" Democrat. I was a registered Republican for 25 years and have been a registered small "I" independent since 2005 leaning more and more toward registering as a large "L" Libertarian. So stick your Democrat loving comments where the sun doesn't shine, since that is yet again another topic where you are talking out your arse and know nothing. I voted for Reagan twice and Bush Sr. twice. I've also voted for Democrats and 3rd party candidates at all levels.

In closing, just to keep this really classy, bite my fat white ass.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

pacatrue — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:18:14 -0000

I would like to re-utter Marlowe's question. What IS usually done with the thousands of flags, and, also, thanks Jazz for the link, despite it's dizzying-ness. Along with Peter_Allen, I could find no statement about disposal other than to burn it when it's too soiled to keep. Images of Invesco or DNC temporary staff (that's who we are talking about after all) tossing thousands of flags into a fire would have gone over much better. So, in short, the only thing that they could have done is kept them or re-distributed them -- or dispose of them in a respectful manner. Perhaps higher quality bags would have been more patriotic than clearly the cheapo garden bags from Home Depot.

Anyway, I was intrigued by a couple other sections of the Flag codes. First, we have this one:

(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

I would think half the nation's Fourth of July celebrations either blatantly violate this or get close. I suppose they get around it by having vague blue, red, and white stars that aren't exactly the flag but are meant to convey flag-ness. Then you have this confusing one:

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

First of all, crap! I wore a flag bandana/hankerchief on my head when my son and I marched in a 4th of July parade a couple years ago. I thought I was honoring America, when I was desecrating it.

Moreover, I guess the question is whether the flag lapel pin is considered a flag patch or not, because the latter is restricted to people in uniform. Have all those people wearing flag lapel pins been in violation of this rule who weren't in uniform? Actually desecrating the flag? Perhaps both parties can get away with claiming that the Dems and Republicans are patriotic organizations, so it's okay. That means I'm now going to get really angry if I see someone independent wearing a flag pin.

Re: Stupid, Unpatriotic, Wrong and Stupid

Polimom — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:14:08 -0000

Jazz -- your Denver Post story (that included the picture) has an update below the photo. Have you seen it?

And to all: do you seriously think that somebody would go to the trouble of picking up and carefully rolling 12,000 flags, just so they could thrown away?