The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:05:40 -0000

You did not answer my question. Read the part of my quote you pasted, above, again, then read your reply. It doesn&#39t follow.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

JeffersonDavis — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:26:35 -0000

"First, unless you have had personal conversations with all 28 million -plus Iraqis, you cannot say that "the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly enjoying that very progress." How many ordinary Iraqis (meaning, Iraqis not part of the ruling class or directly associated with the U.S. military) that you know or have spoken with one on one have told you Iraq has made progress because of the U.S. presence, and that they "like" and are "enjoying that very progress"? "

Yes, Yes, and yes.

I was not in contact with the "ruling class", Kathy. I leave that to the State Department and the Generals.
Everyday Iraqis LIKE their prospects. They don&#39t like the current situation and are ready for us to leave., but they acknowledge our contributions.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:05:40 -0000

You did not answer my question. Read the part of my quote you pasted, above, again, then read your reply. It doesn't follow.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

JeffersonDavis — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:26:35 -0000

Yes, Yes, and yes.

I was not in contact with the "ruling class", Kathy. I leave that to the State Department and the Generals.
Everyday Iraqis LIKE their prospects. They don't like the current situation and are ready for us to leave., but they acknowledge our contributions.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

Don Quijote — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:54:19 -0000

Since the 1960s, the radicalized Left has not only expected perfection (as it defines) of the USA, but has been obscessed with fault-finding and disparaging the USA (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the West; this is a Western, not only a US, phenemenon).

That&#39s not quite right...

Most of us who are critical of the US watch the media produced by the US and assumed that it reflected reality, when we got a little older we did a compare and contrast essay in our minds. Rarely if ever did the reality match the propaganda, once in a blue moon it was better, but most of the time it didn&#39t even come close to it.

The propagandist told us that the US was in favor of peace, democracy and prosperity. In reality, we have overthrown Democratic regimes (Mossadeq, Arbenz, Sukarno, Allende, etc..)like they were going out of style, we have supported more Dictatorships (Shah of Iran, Saudi Royalty, Mubarak, Pinochet, Franco, Salazar, Somoza, the Greek Colonels ) than I care to name (pretty much any non-communist mass murdering scumbag that has walked on the face of this earth in the last fifty years), we have started more wars(Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice, Afghanistan twice, Granada, Panama ) than any other country in the last fifty years and our economic policies where they have been exported (Latin America & other third world countries) have been a humanitarian disaster.

So much for Democracy, Prosperity and Peace.

The only upside that I can see, is that our economic elites are in the process of imposing all those fine policies upon the US population.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

Don Quijote — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:54:19 -0000

Since the 1960s, the radicalized Left has not only expected perfection (as it defines) of the USA, but has been obscessed with fault-finding and disparaging the USA (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the West; this is a Western, not only a US, phenemenon).

That's not quite right...

Most of us who are critical of the US watch the media produced by the US and assumed that it reflected reality, when we got a little older we did a compare and contrast essay in our minds. Rarely if ever did the reality match the propaganda, once in a blue moon it was better, but most of the time it didn't even come close to it.

The propagandist told us that the US was in favor of peace, democracy and prosperity. In reality, we have overthrown Democratic regimes (Mossadeq, Arbenz, Sukarno, Allende, etc..)like they were going out of style, we have supported more Dictatorships (Shah of Iran, Saudi Royalty, Mubarak, Pinochet, Franco, Salazar, Somoza, the Greek Colonels ) than I care to name (pretty much any non-communist mass murdering scumbag that has walked on the face of this earth in the last fifty years), we have started more wars(Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice, Afghanistan twice, Granada, Panama ) than any other country in the last fifty years and our economic policies where they have been exported (Latin America & other third world countries) have been a humanitarian disaster.

So much for Democracy, Prosperity and Peace.

The only upside that I can see, is that our economic elites are in the process of imposing all those fine policies upon the US population.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

DLS — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:58:14 -0000

"You cannot expect perfection; we do not live in a world of saints, and I look at the ledger overall as America being a positive, not negative, net influence on world affairs."

Since the 1960s, the radicalized Left has not only expected perfection (as it defines) of the USA, but has been obscessed with fault-finding and disparaging the USA (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the West; this is a Western, not only a US, phenemenon). It is pathogical -- diseased, self-loathing variation of nihilistic tendencies -- by definition.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

AustinRoth — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:14:50 -0000

I indeed misunderstood the intent of your comment, as you did my initial use of &#39she&#39. I meant no disrespect at all, as as I stated, it was perfectly grammatically correct. I was replying to nic, as you said, and he had already identified who we were talking about (you), so I considered the use of your proper name again as redundant and not necessary. I was not trying to snub you at all. That is why I could not for the life of me understand what tense other than third person you wanted me to use.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:58:07 -0000

... your objecting to the use of &#39she&#39 to refer to you when discussing you with someone else is just ignorant.

The above is rude and boorish in tone and inaccurate in substance. Take a look at nicrivera&#39s comment addressed to you, concerning me, the first line of which begins, "I think we need to differentiate..." You will notice that nicrivera refers to me throughout that comment by my given name. I think that must have been a deliberate choice, because I just checked, and I did not see the personal pronoun "she" anywhere. That is a (maybe not the only, but *a*) respectful way to refer to a specific third person when that third person is privy to the discussion. Although I haven&#39t told nicrivera thus far, I will say now that I appreciate it. It&#39s actually a courtesy I might not have noticed if I had not seen the opposite treatment.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:48:41 -0000

I agree with most of the above, and especially the last paragraph. The one thing I would dispute is your reference to the surge having enabled us to achieve the goal of a stable democracy in Iraq. Iraq is anything but a democracy, much less a stable one. (Although it&#39s hard to see how democracy can even be democracy in the absence of stability.)

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

AustinRoth — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:42:56 -0000

First, if I am responding to someone else about you or posts you have made, then talking about you in the third person is the correct voice. It is incorrect to talk at you directly in the third person, or about oneself in the third person, but your objecting to the use of &#39she&#39 to refer to you when discussing you with someone else is just ignorant.

Second, your stated position that I hold the U.S. responsible for the "bombs that go off" is exactly what I am talking about. Do you blame the US for 9/11 therefore? Do you excuse any and all killings of innocent, third-party civilians by terrorists pissed at US policy as justifiable? Your statement sure seems to say you do, and absolutely justifies my criticism of your being anti-American.

You seem to only see the bad that America has indeed done, and still does, but never the good, and you do so while overlooking or even as you just did justifying the bad that others do as &#39understandable&#39. I find that reprehensible, and again anti-America.

Finally, do I want America to have global economic and military dominance, be the indispensable nation, a beacon of freedom and enlightenment, and a shining city on the hill? You bet. It sure beats giving that title away freely to Russia or China or India (or Iran).

Do I think we are perfect? Hell no. But overall we are a damn sight better than the others you seem to feel are morally superior to us. You cannot expect perfection; we do not live in a world of saints, and I look at the ledger overall as America being a positive, not negative, net influence on world affairs.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:41:55 -0000

Should I presume that you will not accept the above description since it does not support your liberal agenda? I hope that is not the case.

Despite the laughable hypocrisy of your snark, I will say that I do accept the validity of your own direct observations and perceptions in Iraq. But I do have a couple of caveats.

First, unless you have had personal conversations with all 28 million -plus Iraqis, you cannot say that "the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly enjoying that very progress." How many ordinary Iraqis (meaning, Iraqis not part of the ruling class or directly associated with the U.S. military) that you know or have spoken with one on one have told you Iraq has made progress because of the U.S. presence, and that they "like" and are "enjoying that very progress"? Did you speak to these Iraqis in their own language (Arabic, I assume)? Do you think they might have been telling you what they thought you wanted to hear?

Please understand: I am not trying to tell you you&#39re lying or not being honest when I ask these questions. I am merely trying to find out if you have considered them in weighing what Iraqis have told you and what you have observed.

My second caveat is that, although the Iraqis you met and spoke with may very well think Iraq has made progress under U.S. occupation and be enjoying it, you are only one person. Many other observers -- including other Americans like yourself who have served in Iraq -- have come away with impressions and perceptions quite different from yours. Do you accept the validity of their descriptions?

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:59:34 -0000

Criticizing the government or its policies is one thing, and quite fair game; claiming every ill in the world and every bomb that goes off is America&#39s fault is quite another. It is the latter that she engages in, and that I object to, and that I take issue with.

Your claim that I "claim every ill in the world and every bomb that goes off is America&#39s fault" is clearly nonsense. At best, it&#39s a gross exaggeration; at worst, it&#39s a deliberate, knowing falsehood. I criticize U.S. government policies that in my view are wrong and/or harmful and therefore need to be criticized, and I hold the U.S. responsible for the "bombs that go off" when the U.S. is in fact responsible for the conditions and circumstances that led to the bombs going off.

As it happens, the U.S. is actually responsible, to varying degrees, for much of the bad stuff that goes on in the world because our foreign policy since the end of World War II has been, in general, abysmal. We can argue over specific policies and whether they are helpful or harmful, but what we cannot do is support the idea of "American exceptionalism," and then claim that we are not to blame for the negative effects of our own policies and actions. We cannot simultaneously acknowledge and laud the fact that the U.S. has global economic and military dominance in the world and that it should ever be so and that our global policies should be directed toward maintaining and increasing that dominance, and insist that our global dominance has no adverse effects at all on the rest of the world. You and others like you want to believe that everything we do in the world is good for the world, that we&#39re the indispensable nation, that we&#39re a beacon of freedom and enlightenment, that we&#39re that shining city on the hill -- but then when you see evidence that this is, at the least, not entirely true, you bitterly and angrily blame and attack the messengers.

You cannot have it both ways, AR. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. If you want to believe that the U.S. is the most important nation in the world and that it is our right to act in the world in pursuit of our interests regardless of the consequences for others, then you cannot logically or justifiably or rationally claim that when bad things happen on our watch, and those bad things are pointed out, that constitutes "blaming America first" or "blaming America for everything bad that happens." You want America to BE first in the world, while rejecting all of the unwelcome consequences of being first in the world. That&#39s a ridiculous, untenable position, and it&#39s intellectually dishonest of you to blame me for pointing it out.

As a closing note, I would like to request that you stop referring to me in this comments section as "SHE." I read and contribute to these comments, as you may be aware. I am here. Please do not refer to me in the third person.

Thank you.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

AustinRoth — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:39:12 -0000

nic -

Criticizing the government or its policies is one thing, and quite fair game; claiming every ill in the world and every bomb that goes off is America&#39s fault is quite another. It is the latter that she engages in, and that I object to, and that I take issue with.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

DLS — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:58:14 -0000

"You cannot expect perfection; we do not live in a world of saints, and I look at the ledger overall as America being a positive, not negative, net influence on world affairs."

Since the 1960s, the radicalized Left has not only expected perfection (as it defines) of the USA, but has been obscessed with fault-finding and disparaging the USA (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the West; this is a Western, not only a US, phenemenon). It is pathogical -- diseased, self-loathing variation of nihilistic tendencies -- by definition.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

AustinRoth — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:14:50 -0000

I indeed misunderstood the intent of your comment, as you did my initial use of 'she'. I meant no disrespect at all, as as I stated, it was perfectly grammatically correct. I was replying to nic, as you said, and he had already identified who we were talking about (you), so I considered the use of your proper name again as redundant and not necessary. I was not trying to snub you at all. That is why I could not for the life of me understand what tense other than third person you wanted me to use.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:58:07 -0000

... your objecting to the use of 'she' to refer to you when discussing you with someone else is just ignorant.

The above is rude and boorish in tone and inaccurate in substance. Take a look at nicrivera's comment addressed to you, concerning me, the first line of which begins, "I think we need to differentiate..." You will notice that nicrivera refers to me throughout that comment by my given name. I think that must have been a deliberate choice, because I just checked, and I did not see the personal pronoun "she" anywhere. That is a (maybe not the only, but *a*) respectful way to refer to a specific third person when that third person is privy to the discussion. Although I haven't told nicrivera thus far, I will say now that I appreciate it. It's actually a courtesy I might not have noticed if I had not seen the opposite treatment.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:48:41 -0000

I agree with most of the above, and especially the last paragraph. The one thing I would dispute is your reference to the surge having enabled us to achieve the goal of a stable democracy in Iraq. Iraq is anything but a democracy, much less a stable one. (Although it's hard to see how democracy can even be democracy in the absence of stability.)

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

AustinRoth — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:42:56 -0000

Second, your stated position that I hold the U.S. responsible for the "bombs that go off" is exactly what I am talking about. Do you blame the US for 9/11 therefore? Do you excuse any and all killings of innocent, third-party civilians by terrorists pissed at US policy as justifiable? Your statement sure seems to say you do, and absolutely justifies my criticism of your being anti-American.

You seem to only see the bad that America has indeed done, and still does, but never the good, and you do so while overlooking or even as you just did justifying the bad that others do as 'understandable'. I find that reprehensible, and again anti-America.

Finally, do I want America to have global economic and military dominance, be the indispensable nation, a beacon of freedom and enlightenment, and a shining city on the hill? You bet. It sure beats giving that title away freely to Russia or China or India (or Iran).

Do I think we are perfect? Hell no. But overall we are a damn sight better than the others you seem to feel are morally superior to us. You cannot expect perfection; we do not live in a world of saints, and I look at the ledger overall as America being a positive, not negative, net influence on world affairs.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:41:55 -0000

Should I presume that you will not accept the above description since it does not support your liberal agenda? I hope that is not the case.

Despite the laughable hypocrisy of your snark, I will say that I do accept the validity of your own direct observations and perceptions in Iraq. But I do have a couple of caveats.

First, unless you have had personal conversations with all 28 million -plus Iraqis, you cannot say that "the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly enjoying that very progress." How many ordinary Iraqis (meaning, Iraqis not part of the ruling class or directly associated with the U.S. military) that you know or have spoken with one on one have told you Iraq has made progress because of the U.S. presence, and that they "like" and are "enjoying that very progress"? Did you speak to these Iraqis in their own language (Arabic, I assume)? Do you think they might have been telling you what they thought you wanted to hear?

Please understand: I am not trying to tell you you're lying or not being honest when I ask these questions. I am merely trying to find out if you have considered them in weighing what Iraqis have told you and what you have observed.

My second caveat is that, although the Iraqis you met and spoke with may very well think Iraq has made progress under U.S. occupation and be enjoying it, you are only one person. Many other observers -- including other Americans like yourself who have served in Iraq -- have come away with impressions and perceptions quite different from yours. Do you accept the validity of their descriptions?

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

kathykattenburg — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:59:34 -0000

Criticizing the government or its policies is one thing, and quite fair game; claiming every ill in the world and every bomb that goes off is America's fault is quite another. It is the latter that she engages in, and that I object to, and that I take issue with.

Your claim that I "claim every ill in the world and every bomb that goes off is America's fault" is clearly nonsense. At best, it's a gross exaggeration; at worst, it's a deliberate, knowing falsehood. I criticize U.S. government policies that in my view are wrong and/or harmful and therefore need to be criticized, and I hold the U.S. responsible for the "bombs that go off" when the U.S. is in fact responsible for the conditions and circumstances that led to the bombs going off.

As it happens, the U.S. is actually responsible, to varying degrees, for much of the bad stuff that goes on in the world because our foreign policy since the end of World War II has been, in general, abysmal. We can argue over specific policies and whether they are helpful or harmful, but what we cannot do is support the idea of "American exceptionalism," and then claim that we are not to blame for the negative effects of our own policies and actions. We cannot simultaneously acknowledge and laud the fact that the U.S. has global economic and military dominance in the world and that it should ever be so and that our global policies should be directed toward maintaining and increasing that dominance, and insist that our global dominance has no adverse effects at all on the rest of the world. You and others like you want to believe that everything we do in the world is good for the world, that we're the indispensable nation, that we're a beacon of freedom and enlightenment, that we're that shining city on the hill -- but then when you see evidence that this is, at the least, not entirely true, you bitterly and angrily blame and attack the messengers.

You cannot have it both ways, AR. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. If you want to believe that the U.S. is the most important nation in the world and that it is our right to act in the world in pursuit of our interests regardless of the consequences for others, then you cannot logically or justifiably or rationally claim that when bad things happen on our watch, and those bad things are pointed out, that constitutes "blaming America first" or "blaming America for everything bad that happens." You want America to BE first in the world, while rejecting all of the unwelcome consequences of being first in the world. That's a ridiculous, untenable position, and it's intellectually dishonest of you to blame me for pointing it out.

As a closing note, I would like to request that you stop referring to me in this comments section as "SHE." I read and contribute to these comments, as you may be aware. I am here. Please do not refer to me in the third person.

Thank you.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

AustinRoth — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:39:12 -0000

nic -

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:14:34 -0000

"But the Bush administration did something completely different. It claimed that, by reducing the level of violence, the surge enabled the U.S. to succeed in its mission in Iraq"

This is much like the Obama Administration claiming that it is waiting for the elections in Kabul to go through prior to making a decision on more troops. That decision has already been made. They are postponing that decision&#39s public release until after AMERICAN elections. Both Bush and Obama are wrong in that tactic. It&#39s dishonest. Politics cannot and should not be a part of ANY decision dealing with our troops. We supposedly learned that lesson in Vietnam. But the American attention span being short, perhaps they wish to learn that lesson again. I won&#39t put up with that. None of us should.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:10:31 -0000

"*Sigh.* I know what Fascism is, JD. My post was a facetious spin..."

My bad, Vera. Wasn&#39t attempting to insult your intelligence. It&#39s easy to get in "corrective mode" when I see many others use illogical arguments and misuse words for their own spin. Sorry again.

Re: The Surge Worked; “We” Won the War

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:09:08 -0000

"Who are you to judge what is "true and actual progress" for over 28 million Iraqis? How can you even pretend to know such a thing?" (to Austin Roth).

Some of us have actually been there, Kathy. I&#39ve spent 3 years of my life there. I can tell you without bias that the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly enjoying that very progress. They like it. They know that there is much remaining to do to bring Iraq up to a productive nation in the world economy. They also feel that, once we leave, it will most likely get better. That&#39s why the populace wants us to withdraw.

Should I presume that you will not accept the above description since it does not support your liberal agenda? I hope that is not the case.