The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in The Ultimate Sacrifice

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

archangel — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:55:06 -0000

Good job AR. Class.

dr.e

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

adelinesdad — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:18:49 -0000

You know what? I take that back, for the most part. From the article linked in the post:

"20.2 per 100,000 people in the military, compared with the civilian rate of 19.5 per 100,000. The Army&#39s suicide rate was 12.7 per 100,000 in 2005, "

That&#39s a significant increase since 2005. And as I mentioned suicide is just the tip of the iceburg. I didn&#39t realized it had increased that much, as I was just comparing it to the civilian rate.

My apologies, and thanks for letting me think through the issue out loud.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

adelinesdad — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:13:35 -0000

"I’m sure that the war faithful will find a way to jigger these numbers — trivialize them, minimize their significance."

Please don&#39t misinterpret my comment. This thread is understandable already very emotional for many and I&#39m not trying to downplay the problem. I certainly am not surprised that military life is very difficult and would lead to suicides in some people and other mental health issues in many others, which truly is tragic.

But I also want to make sure I&#39m understanding these numbers. I think we have to put the number in context, so I did some looking around: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28895624/

Army officials calculated the suicide rate at 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, the highest in its history and higher than the civilian rate for the first time since the Vietnam War. According to figures compiled by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the civilian suicide rate was 11 per 100,000 Americans in 2004, the last year for which fully adjusted national figures are available.

Exact comparisons could be misleading because the makeup of the Army does not mirror that of American society as a whole. But among the segment of the civilian population that most closely reflects the demographic makeup of the military — males ages 18 to 24 — about 19.8 Americans committed suicide per 100,000 in 2004, CDC figures show.

Again, please don&#39t misunderstand. I absolutely agree that concern for the mental health of our troops is warranted, I&#39m just not sure that these numbers are really the ones to point to to make that clear. I expect you would see a much greater difference when you look at the numbers for post-duty military (as they deal with PTSD and such) if we had such numbers. And of course just counting suicides doesn&#39t count the large number dealing with mental health issues that thankfully don&#39t commit suicide. I understand that this is an emotional issue and just looking at the numbers is a cold way to look at it (however, in my defense, I&#39m not the one who brought up the original numbers), but honestly I believe numbers are important to understanding the issue and I don&#39t see these numbers are particularly unexpected.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

JeffersonDavis — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:10:18 -0000

You&#39re welcome, Kat.
I&#39ve tried to be fair on all things. If you are right, I say so. If I am wrong, I try to say so as well.

You know I love ya...

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

kathykattenburg — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:58:10 -0000

JD, I want to commend you for using the phrase "I agree." I don&#39t think I&#39ve ever seen you do that before. Not that you haven&#39t agreed with me now and then in the past, on something, but you&#39ve always said, "You are absolutely correct," and when you disagree, of course, you say "You are absolutely wrong." Or just "You are wrong."

Perhaps this is the start of a longer term trend toward doubt and uncertainty. Let us hope.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

JeffersonDavis — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:52:40 -0000

I agree wholeheartedly about bringing the troops home and avoiding prolonged and repeated tours.
It is, indeed, a major cause of suicide within the military.

And you don&#39t want to hear this, Kathy. But do you know what cause #2 is?
The dimenishment of spirituality within the military.
(source: Navy Times, Vol 78, 2008: quoting the Surgeon General)

That is why the military began pushing spiritual inclusion while in uniform. Don&#39t worry, there&#39s no "go to Church" order here. They merely encourage military members to attend services of some sort (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wicca, etc). Even atheists are encouraged to come together in support groups. This push has resulted in an overal decrease in suicide rates over 4 years of implementation

However, this year has been the worst year in recent memory in terms of suicide among military members. They haven&#39t determined why as of yet. Many theories out there. Could be the mixture of long tours and the economy, and even perhaps an uncertainty in how the Commander-in-Chief will utilize them. Who knows.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

tidbits — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:36:17 -0000

Class act, AR.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

kathykattenburg — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:24:26 -0000

Austin, we know one thing for sure. *You* are not a coward. That could not have been an easy thing to write. It was gutsy, and classy, and so are you.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

AustinRoth — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:20:45 -0000

kathy -

I have been thinking about your reply since I got it, as it had a strong reaction for me. I have indeed been looking at this wrong.

My initial reaction was driven by the use of the words &#39ultimate sacrifice&#39. I still have issues with that term being used for those who commit suicide, even with my own background. I cannot shake the feeling it debases the use of it for those who gave their lives performing their duty.

That said, I do think my words were way too strong, and I found myself writing things upon reflection I know I cannot defend.

Cowardice in particular was a very shameful term for me to throw around, as was equating suicides with those who do self-harm to get out of battle.

For those comments, I do feel sorry for saying them.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

archangel — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:55:06 -0000

Good job AR. Class.

dr.e

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

adelinesdad — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:18:49 -0000

You know what? I take that back, for the most part. From the article linked in the post:

"20.2 per 100,000 people in the military, compared with the civilian rate of 19.5 per 100,000. The Army's suicide rate was 12.7 per 100,000 in 2005, "

That's a significant increase since 2005. And as I mentioned suicide is just the tip of the iceburg. I didn't realize it had increased that much, as I was just comparing it to the civilian rate.

My apologies, and thanks for letting me think through the issue out loud.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

adelinesdad — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:13:35 -0000

"I’m sure that the war faithful will find a way to jigger these numbers — trivialize them, minimize their significance."

Please don't misinterpret my comment. This thread is understandable already very emotional for many and I'm not trying to downplay the problem. I certainly am not surprised that military life is very difficult and would lead to suicides in some people and other mental health issues in many others, which truly is tragic.

But I also want to make sure I'm understanding these numbers. I think we have to put the number in context, so I did some looking around: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id...

Army officials calculated the suicide rate at 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, the highest in its history and higher than the civilian rate for the first time since the Vietnam War. According to figures compiled by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the civilian suicide rate was 11 per 100,000 Americans in 2004, the last year for which fully adjusted national figures are available.

Exact comparisons could be misleading because the makeup of the Army does not mirror that of American society as a whole. But among the segment of the civilian population that most closely reflects the demographic makeup of the military — males ages 18 to 24 — about 19.8 Americans committed suicide per 100,000 in 2004, CDC figures show.

Again, please don't misunderstand. I absolutely agree that concern for the mental health of our troops is warranted, I'm just not sure that these numbers are really the ones to point to to make that clear. I expect you would see a much greater difference when you look at the numbers for post-duty military (as they deal with PTSD and such) if we had such numbers. And of course just counting suicides doesn't count the large number dealing with mental health issues that thankfully don't commit suicide. I understand that this is an emotional issue and just looking at the numbers is a cold way to look at it (however, in my defense, I'm not the one who brought up the original numbers), but honestly I believe numbers are important to understanding the issue and I don't see these numbers are particularly unexpected.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

JeffersonDavis — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:10:18 -0000

You're welcome, Kat.
I've tried to be fair on all things. If you are right, I say so. If I am wrong, I try to say so as well.

You know I love ya...

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

kathykattenburg — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:58:10 -0000

JD, I want to commend you for using the phrase "I agree." I don't think I've ever seen you do that before. Not that you haven't agreed with me now and then in the past, on something, but you've always said, "You are absolutely correct," and when you disagree, of course, you say "You are absolutely wrong." Or just "You are wrong."

Perhaps this is the start of a longer term trend toward doubt and uncertainty. Let us hope.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:52:40 -0000

I agree wholeheartedly about bringing the troops home and avoiding prolonged and repeated tours.
It is, indeed, a major cause of suicide within the military.

And you don't want to hear this, Kathy. But do you know what cause #2 is?
The dimenishment of spirituality within the military.
(source: Navy Times, Vol 78, 2008: quoting the Surgeon General)

That is why the military began pushing spiritual inclusion while in uniform. Don't worry, there's no "go to Church" order here. They merely encourage military members to attend services of some sort (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wicca, etc). Even atheists are encouraged to come together in support groups. This push has resulted in an overal decrease in suicide rates over 4 years of implementation

However, this year has been the worst year in recent memory in terms of suicide among military members. They haven't determined why as of yet. Many theories out there. Could be the mixture of long tours and the economy, and even perhaps an uncertainty in how the Commander-in-Chief will utilize them. Who knows.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

kathykattenburg — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:10:44 -0000

They don&#39t kill themselves "to get out of combat," AR. Many suicides are committed by veterans who have already returned home and are not even IN combat anymore. Regardless of where and when it happens, war-related suicides happen because the individual is living with unbearable psychic pain. They don&#39t do it to "get out of combat." They do it because they are dead inside and they want to *be* dead.

Jeez Louise.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

nicrivera — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:18:56 -0000

Honoring the heroes has its place. So does caring for all who serve or have served. And, damn the political leaders who send them to die or be forever diminished in their wars of choice.

I can&#39t argue with that.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

tidbits — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:43:21 -0000

AR - Here&#39s a link related to brain chemistry and stress reaction in military situations. It&#39s not directly related to suicide, but may be of some value in advancing understanding of the phenomenon. You can also roam around the site to see study results and studies underway related to PTSD, depression and other issues related to chemical - and physiological - changes in the brain resulting from combat situations. I know it&#39s not fully on point, just thought it might be helpful.

http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2007/05/specific...

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

tidbits — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:36:17 -0000

Class act, AR.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

kathykattenburg — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:24:26 -0000

Austin, we know one thing for sure. *You* are not a coward. That could not have been an easy thing to write. It was gutsy, and classy, and so are you.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

AustinRoth — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:20:45 -0000

kathy -

I have been thinking about your reply since I got it, as it had a strong reaction for me. I have indeed been looking at this wrong.

My initial reaction was driven by the use of the words 'ultimate sacrifice'. I still have issues with that term being used for those who commit suicide, even with my own background. I cannot shake the feeling it debases the use of it for those who gave their lives performing their duty.

That said, I do think my words were way too strong, and I found myself writing things upon reflection I know I cannot defend.

Cowardice in particular was a very shameful term for me to throw around, as was equating suicides with those who do self-harm to get out of battle.

For those comments, I do feel sorry for saying them.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

archangel — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:55:53 -0000

For those wishing to know more, google &#39brain chemicals&#39 and &#39research&#39 and &#39PTSD&#39 and perhaps &#392009&#39. You will get some hits. Unfortunately, in the &#39free and open internet,&#39 most medical and research journals that have the real meat with methodologies and stats and controls laid out clearly, are by subscription only.

dr.e

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

roro80 — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:40:08 -0000

AR -- I don&#39t have access to the medical journals I used to (I&#39m no longer an academic and I didn&#39t go into that field), but just googling in "brain chemistry PTSD" brought up a ton of lay-person articles.

On the other hand, it should be pretty clear that people don&#39t just go and off themselves if their brain chemistry is acting in healthy way. Have you ever done biofeedback? A person can truly change their body processes by focused meditation, and one can stimulate things like alpha waves within the brain with enough practice, one can lower one&#39s blood pressure through daily relaxation; hell, they say just having a dog raises a person&#39s health (by whatever method of measurement they use). Considering we can change all these ways in which our body works (physical, quantifiable effects) by just being happy or relaxed or whatever, why is it a stretch to think that severe emotional trauma might do the opposite?

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

AustinRoth — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:29:17 -0000

ProfElwood -

Valid point.

Re: The Ultimate Sacrifice

spirasol — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:25:26 -0000

Sorry General Austin, whatever your personal history, whatever your opinion, -- your are so rigidly incredibly positioned, exposed, why a loose projectile could find its way to loosen by dint of the hopes of many and find its way to land on your head. In the Vietnam war the soldiers might have visited your tent late at night.......

People may sign up or been lied to and signed up, or been bamboozled and signed-- no matter. When a soldier, many are incredibly young people, determines that what they are doing has no meaning and perhaps may even be immoral, they have choices before them...... the healthiest probably choose sociopathic means of escaping, in the biz we call it healthy narcissism, they do what they have to, to put themselves out of the crazy situation (like the soldier who recently shot himself in the shoulder to avoid being redeployed to Afghanistan). There are the honorable ones who try to face down the military, but more often then not they are made to eat crow, and shamed out of service as if they lost their minds, -- they didn&#39t. There are those who are able to go out honorably, resigning with protest, like Captain Hoh recently did. Perhaps an arm chair tactician or a simply rigid heartless, perhaps inexperienced soul could label them all to be cowards. I would vouch that it takes a hell of alot more courage than you have imagined to go up against the status quo, even though by training they are supposed to refuse illegal orders. Those who do protest in whatever way they do, likely get the benefit of having stood guard on their own soul and attempted to follow its deep counsel. I suspect the ones that come home most messed up are the one that pitted duty against their own sense of right and wrong. In that case the duty they did does not protect them from their own conscience, thus they suffer and sometimes take their own life, tragically.

I also believe the biological model is only one way to look at depression and should be noted that PTSD is not a mere depression, however debilitating. Science does not have the instruments to measure "soul loss" likely Dr. E, could do a more credible job of explaining that if she cared to.