The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

CStanley — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:59:11 -0000

Kim- yup, yup, yup- as I said, I'm not claiming that McClelland is lying now, and you are right that there's a pattern. Clearly this wasn't a successful administration in many ways.

Runasim- I can see your point, because I overstated that. In the context though, you'll see that I was referring to whether or not the "lies and propaganda" to sell the Iraq War to the public will go down in history as something egregious or not.

I agree with you that there are other issues, other implications, that will all have to be sorted out as well. Of course I don't agree with the degree to which you feel they've already been sorted, and I have no idea what you mean by Bush's demonization corroding society (assuming you don't mean that the demonization of Bush is corroding people's ability to think clearly- I'd agree with you if that's what you meant!)

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

runasim — Wed, 28 May 2008 12:40:30 -0000

"So in the end all that really matters is how Iraq turns out- that's how history will judge Bush's decision"
_________________________________

I couldn't disagree more. On the way to Iraq, what happened to the presidency, the justice department and the politicalzation of all branches of government will have a lasting impact, the magnitude of which will only become apparent with time.
We can't know now to what extent future administrations will be tempted to copy worst practices for the sake of power
We can see already how Bush's demonization of the opponents is corroding society at all levels.
Iraq is but a symptom,or an excuse,, depending how you look at it., of the myriad of things that matter much more, even when wars are fought.

We are now, and still, debating torture, for one
There is a lot that matters as much, if not more, than the war.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

kritt11 — Wed, 28 May 2008 12:18:13 -0000

Or to fit the overall pattern of information that others have given in their tell-all books when leaving the WH. I get your overall point, but here McClelland is given some credence because of what others have said before him.

And I agree with you about FDR, and that all wars are sold to the public. If we had found the weapons of mass destruction, and won the war, Bush might have gone down as a hero instead of a goat. Or, if we had remained bogged down in battles fighting Hitler and Mussolini, FDR might have been vilified for exaggerating the threat,

Bush's problem is that now that we have been over there for going on 6 years, everyone is looking for whose at fault and examining how we became entangled in this mess in the first place. The difference is that FDR must have had some sense that the risk was worth taking in the first place, while Bush bungled the effort.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

CStanley — Wed, 28 May 2008 11:29:44 -0000

Kim-someone started by pointing out the Judas meme that you mention and I was just saying that it works both ways. I don't buy either side of that- McClellan, like all WH press secretaries, was a shill- that's the job description. Frankly I don't care about the 'lies' or 'propaganda' by the WH either because that too is the way the game is played and has been forever. All wars are sold to the public with propaganda because people don't get nuance. I'll probably be castigated for bringing up FDR, but I have to point out for anyone who doesn't remember their history, that FDR gave a speech in the fall of 1941 saying that he held in his hands a plan by the Nazis to take over South America and the Panama Canal. Google "FDR Navy Day speech" if you aren't aware of this. There were no chants of "FDR Lied", no OpEds about "What I Didn't Find in Panama." Why? Because the lies are forgotten since the greater cause of WWII was deemed just by history, and because it ended well for the US and our interests. IOW, no one cares when we're lied to if it ends up being a grand lie to serve a greater cause. So in the end all that really matters is how Iraq turns out- that's how history will judge Bush's decision.

My point about McClelland isn't whether he was lying then or now- it's that we all simply choose to believe whatever fits our preconceived notion of the truth. We don't actually have any way of knowing how much is factual, but that doesn't stop people from either sainting or demonizing him to fit their cause.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

kritt11 — Wed, 28 May 2008 10:36:53 -0000

CS- The flip side of this is why does someone who the right wing believed in suddenly become a lying Judas when they write something other than conservative gospel? Anyone who has come out of this administration with less than complementary things to say about those in power has automatically been discredited by them---all out attacks on their credibility and veracity are immediately mounted by allies in the media--until whatever is left of their reputations are destroyed. This was done with Richard Clarke, George Tenet, Bob Woodward, and now Scott McClellan.

McClellan may have served as a less than bright patsy for these guys, who is now profitting by ratting them out, but that doesn't mean he is lying now. He is only substantiating what has been suspected by many of us for a long time-- that we were lied to, and that the administration ran the government in campaign mode- overpoliticizing national events, when they should have been uniting the country to face the mounting threats it faced.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

runasim — Wed, 28 May 2008 10:29:49 -0000

First create a strawman: McClellan is the 'darling' of the left.
Who and where are these people speaking as the 'Left', btw?
It should be obvious by now, that if it's one thing the "Left' doesn't do is speak in one voice. So, who are these impostors claiming to be the "left'?

Second, remind everyonw about the books written about the Clintons to further obfuscate and distract ..

Third, pick some random letters of the alphahabet, (BDS, PC, whatever) i to give the appearnce of having made an intelligent argument without actually doing so.
Always, chose appearnace over substance.

Last, copy and repeat on the next thread.
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Now that we have the customary formalities out of the way, some of us simply find the people in charge of our lives, the WH, very, very interesting.
The contrast between McClellan''s teary farewell from the great guys he worked for and this book arouses curiosity in itself.

My own contribution to pop psychology is that working in the thick of it is so intense that people lose perspective. It coudl be that they lose mental contact with normal life.altogether. Leaving must be a little like leaving a cult, in terms of intensity of feeling.

The de-programming period is not always smooth and may have overreactions ito the other extreme. Blaming starts, even when membership in the 'cult; was voluntary and a good deal of willful ignorance was at play.

If McClellan is capable of honest reflection, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote a third book, perhaps in old age, accepting his own willing part in that which he now criricizes.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

non_prophet — Wed, 28 May 2008 10:27:58 -0000

"why does someone with no credibility in the eyes of leftwingers suddenly become a writer of gospel truth when he switches sides?"
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Because it is now clear that McClellan has seen the light and 'fessed up. He's not lying anymore. He is an ex-insider who has now confirmed our position.

Thus, when it comes to McClellan's conversion, your question is completely off-base.

Remember, it wasn't those who questioned McClellan's credibility who have changed their position. It is McClellan who has changed his to one which comports with the view progressives have always held about the bush administration.

Time and time again, during McClellan's tenure, he was hammered with questions aimed at getting at the truth. McClellan responded with any of a number of the Administration's ludicrous talking points. No one was fooled. He was advancing a lie. Now that he is no longer lying, his credibility is enhanced.

Were it the progressives who changed their tune, perhaps your question would be legit.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

Davebo — Wed, 28 May 2008 10:11:59 -0000

Scott, go Cheney yourself.

Like you didn't realize you were lying to the press at the time?

I realize you're a gullible dweeb, you were hired by the Bush administration after all.

But no one is that gullible.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

JSpencer — Wed, 28 May 2008 09:02:58 -0000

I'm not surprised Scott McClellan wrote this book. I imagine he feels like he's taken a long overdue shower. As for Daveinboca's use of the BDS label, it's just as bogus and lame as it was last year. His greater concern should be BAS (bush apologist syndrome), which at this late juncture can only be described as embarrassing.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

CStanley — Wed, 28 May 2008 08:56:11 -0000

George: There's the flip side of that too; why does someone with no credibility in the eyes of leftwingers suddenly become a writer of gospel truth when he switches sides?

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

ChrisWWW — Wed, 28 May 2008 08:46:07 -0000

Neocon,
Lieberman lost credibility because of his fringe stance on foreign policy. 9/11 and Iraq had the effect of putting his views in stark relief.

The Plame "Affair" was discredited so long ago that it's funeral in court is expected momentarily.

dave,
You mean the one that should have landed Scooter Libby in jail after he became a convicted felon? Oh yeah... nothing to see there.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

Neocon — Wed, 28 May 2008 07:58:46 -0000

Why does someone with plenty of credibility to the right suddenly lose credence when he switches sides?

You mean like Joe Liberman?

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

unclejoe40 — Wed, 28 May 2008 05:25:32 -0000

where are the explosive revelations?

i was hoping to read about the jeff gannon led sex parties

lets see...we were lied to about the war...check

we were lied to about the plame affair....check

we were lied to about everything....check

uh, i know this

scott aint switchin sides...he just isnt a paid liar anymore

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

pacatrue — Wed, 28 May 2008 04:32:56 -0000

I think Rosen may have over thought the McClellan hiring. It sounds like another classic case of Bush hiring someone who was a supporter and then sticking with him long after he had demonstrated he wasn't the best for the job.

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

GeorgeSorwell — Wed, 28 May 2008 04:19:12 -0000

Why does someone with plenty of credibility to the right suddenly lose credence when he switches sides?

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

daveinboca — Wed, 28 May 2008 00:36:38 -0000

McClellan is making the quick hit in a book ghosted by someone who writes better than Scott, who sometimes resembled a turnip-truck driver, speaks. The Plame "Affair" was discredited so long ago that it's funeral in court is expected momentarily. If Scott's presence was such "bad politics," why was the President re-elected during McClellan's tenure?

BDS is last year's big thing, and Scott missed the brass ring that earlier publication might have got him.

And why does a fellow with no credibility to the left suddenly gain credence when he cynically switches sides?

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

KYJurisDoctor — Wed, 28 May 2008 00:35:49 -0000

Scott: Thanks for telling the TRUTH. I'll read your book to catch other SHAMEFUL lies the President told!

Re: Upcoming McClellan Memoir Blasts Bush, Rove, White House

Neocon — Tue, 27 May 2008 21:46:33 -0000

How many former Clinton staffers wrote memoirs that scathed the President and the first lady?

Quite a few. It comes with the territory and frankly I do not read those books. The one exception is George Tenets book because he was actually a democratic holdover from Clinton and I thought he might offer an interesting perspective.

Yes there is no doubt this will have Zero effect on people in this country. Why? Cause Im not sure there could possibly be another person who could dislike Bush anymore then is already possible.

I do believe that the premise is true. That Bush did indeed Sell this war. I was opposed to it then, Im opposed to it now and because we are going to pull out Id rather do it now. Today. Yesterday. Not one more American should lose their lives in Iraq for a lost cause.

Another defeat for the Superpower. Stupidpower. More like it. We just can't understand that we don't need to have our damn fingers in every pie in this world. When we do. We might actually pull our troops out of Germany, Japan, South Korea and 6 billion other countries and let these people take care of themselves for a change.