The Moderate Voice - Latest Comments in Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:14:18 -0000

1. I have granted you this point. I granted you this point several comments ago. I told you that CStanley had persuaded me that the majority of abortions are for "social" reasons (can&#39t afford, don&#39t want, not ready, etc.). Perhaps your confusion, then, is that you somehow have not "taken in" or absorbed, the fact that I am agreeing with you now on this point.

2.See number 1, above.

3. I do not recall your using the phrase "triple up on contraception." You used the phrase "take precautions" which must mean "use contraception" because I don&#39t know what else it could mean. You did not say "extreme precaution." You said that women who could not afford children or didn&#39t want them for whatever reason should either abstain from sex or take precautions (i.e., use contraception). You did say "use contraception" but you did not say "extreme contraception."

Where in the world does a statistic that says that most women who don&#39t want sex use contraception fit into those statements?

Nowhere, because that is not what the statistic says, and it&#39s not what I said it said.

As I&#39m sure you would agree, contraception is not an issue for women who do not want sex.

Contraception is an issue for women who DO want sex but DON&#39T want children.

But I don&#39t believe it fits my original assertion that MOST women have abortions for reasons other than for reasons they cannot control as named above. The vast majority of abortions are because the woman can&#39t afford it, or doesn&#39t want it, or is too immature, etc.

And as I&#39ve said, I agree with that assessment. But somehow, in your mind, the contraceptive issue seems to be one of the reasons you think a woman might have an abortion. You keep saying that most women have abortions because they can&#39t afford, don&#39t want, etc., the baby, NOT because their contraceptive method failed. But what I am trying to find some way to get you to understand is that it&#39s not either/or. It&#39s not either the woman had an abortion because she couldn&#39t afford a baby, or a woman had an abortion because her contraception failed. "Reason for abortion" and "use of contraception" are different in *kind.* They are not in the same category. A woman can have an abortion because she can&#39t afford a baby, EVEN IF she DID use contraception. And that is because contraceptives can fail -- even if you use more than one method.

You seem to believe, or you seem to be saying, at least, that *either* a woman has an abortion because she can&#39t afford a child, *or* she has an abortion because her contraceptive method failed. And that does not make sense. Here is what makes sense: A woman gets pregnant after her contraceptive method fails and she has an abortion because she cannot afford a child.

Is this clear to you now, what I am trying to say to you?

Now, if you come back at me with something like, "Kathy, you still don&#39t understand; I told you that most women have abortions because they can&#39t afford a child, not because of failed contraceptive method," I am going to scream so loud and so long that you WILL hear it in Texas, or wherever it is you are.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:37:31 -0000

Kathy..... For the love of pete, you&#39re killing me.

1. I stated that most women have abortions for reasons other than your many exceptions (rape, incest, health, and contraception).
2. The vast majority have abortions for other reasons. You dismissed my numbers on that because you didn&#39t like the website. Unless you can show me other numbers as to WHY women have abortions, then I have to rely on what I have found.
3. I stated that women who could not afford children, should probably not have sex, or at a bare minimum, triple up on contraception (the words I used were "extreme precaution" I believe).

Where in the world does a statistic that says that most women who don&#39t want sex use contraception fit into those statements? Yes, I got your intent from your last post. But I don&#39t believe it fits my original assertion that MOST women have abortions for reasons other than for reasons they cannot control as named above. The vast majority of abortions are because the woman can&#39t afford it, or doesn&#39t want it, or is too immature, etc.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:25:29 -0000

Why do most women get abortions? Is it because "most" had failed contraception? No.

Here is the logical sequence again, JD.

1. Woman is sexually active but does not want to have a child.
2. Woman uses contraception to prevent pregnancy.
3. Contraceptive fails to work as it should.
4. Woman becomes pregnant.
5. Woman does not want to be pregnant (refer back to number 1) and decides to have an abortion.

Here is JD&#39s argument:

1. If a woman does not want to have a baby, she should be responsible.
2. Definition of being responsible:
(a) not have sex
(b) use contraception
3. Woman chooses responsible option b: Use contraception.
4. Contraception fails, woman becomes pregnant, woman has abortion.

Now let&#39s revisit what you said above:

Kathy. You&#39ve missed the original assertion, again.

Most sexually active women of childbearing age but don&#39t want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant?

SO WHAT? That&#39s obvious!!!!!! If they WANTED children, they wouldn&#39t have used contraception!!!!!

Ummmm, yeah... that&#39s true... so why have you been saying that if a woman doesn&#39t want to be pregnant she should act responsibly by not having sex, OR by using contraception?

Continuing:

Now... Let&#39s make that statement pertinent, shall we?
Why do most women get abortions? Is it because "most" had failed contraception? No.

Ummmm, no.... It&#39s because they don&#39t want to have a child. I agree with that. Although I feel I must add, in the interest of accuracy, that I never said most women have abortions because they didn&#39t use contraception. I said that most unwanted pregnancies happen because contraception fails. After all, if you&#39re having an abortion, it must mean you&#39re pregnant, right? And if you don&#39t want to be pregnant and you were using contraception, it must mean your contraceptive method failed, right? Otherwise, you wouldn&#39t need an abortion, right?

Now, going back to something you have said repeatedly: Those women (the ones who have abortions because they don&#39t want a child) are irresponsible because if they didn&#39t want a child, they should have either not had sex or used contraception.

But most of them DID use contraception!

Then you say,
I site WHY women have abortions.
You come back with some health-class information about women who don&#39t want children use contraception? What does that have to do with MY statement?

Here&#39s what it has to do with your statement: Most women who have abortions don&#39t want the baby. Most women who have abortions are pregnant (well, actually all women who have abortions are pregnant). Most women who don&#39t want children were using contraception at the time they had sex, and became pregnant. Therefore, your repeated claim that women who have abortions are irresponsible because they should have used contraception doesn&#39t make sense.

Finally you say,

That is what I have been saying this entire time!!!! This is what is so darned frustrating.

To which I reply:Oh, JD. Tell me about it. I know exactly how you feel.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:29:31 -0000

"As I&#39ve said at least three times now, most women of childbearing age who are sexually active but don&#39t want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant."

Ok, Kathy. You&#39ve missed the original assertion, again.

Most sexually active women of childbearing age but don&#39t want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant?

SO WHAT? That&#39s obvious!!!!!! If they WANTED children, they wouldn&#39t have used contraception!!!!!

Now... Let&#39s make that statement pertinent, shall we?
Why do most women get abortions? Is it because "most" had failed contraception? No.

That is what I have been saying this entire time!!!! This is what is so darned frustrating.

I site WHY women have abortions.
You come back with some health-class information about women who don&#39t want children use contraception? What does that have to do with MY statement?

GEEZ!

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:14:18 -0000

2.See number 1, above.

3. I do not recall your using the phrase "triple up on contraception." You used the phrase "take precautions" which must mean "use contraception" because I don't know what else it could mean. You did not say "extreme precaution." You said that women who could not afford children or didn't want them for whatever reason should either abstain from sex or take precautions (i.e., use contraception). You did say "use contraception" but you did not say "extreme contraception."

Where in the world does a statistic that says that most women who don't want sex use contraception fit into those statements?

Nowhere, because that is not what the statistic says, and it's not what I said it said.

As I'm sure you would agree, contraception is not an issue for women who do not want sex.

Contraception is an issue for women who DO want sex but DON'T want children.

But I don't believe it fits my original assertion that MOST women have abortions for reasons other than for reasons they cannot control as named above. The vast majority of abortions are because the woman can't afford it, or doesn't want it, or is too immature, etc.

And as I've said, I agree with that assessment. But somehow, in your mind, the contraceptive issue seems to be one of the reasons you think a woman might have an abortion. You keep saying that most women have abortions because they can't afford, don't want, etc., the baby, NOT because their contraceptive method failed. But what I am trying to find some way to get you to understand is that it's not either/or. It's not either the woman had an abortion because she couldn't afford a baby, or a woman had an abortion because her contraception failed. "Reason for abortion" and "use of contraception" are different in *kind.* They are not in the same category. A woman can have an abortion because she can't afford a baby, EVEN IF she DID use contraception. And that is because contraceptives can fail -- even if you use more than one method.

You seem to believe, or you seem to be saying, at least, that *either* a woman has an abortion because she can't afford a child, *or* she has an abortion because her contraceptive method failed. And that does not make sense. Here is what makes sense: A woman gets pregnant after her contraceptive method fails and she has an abortion because she cannot afford a child.

Is this clear to you now, what I am trying to say to you?

Now, if you come back at me with something like, "Kathy, you still don't understand; I told you that most women have abortions because they can't afford a child, not because of failed contraceptive method," I am going to scream so loud and so long that you WILL hear it in Texas, or wherever it is you are.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:37:31 -0000

Kathy..... For the love of pete, you're killing me.

1. I stated that most women have abortions for reasons other than your many exceptions (rape, incest, health, and contraception).
2. The vast majority have abortions for other reasons. You dismissed my numbers on that because you didn't like the website. Unless you can show me other numbers as to WHY women have abortions, then I have to rely on what I have found.
3. I stated that women who could not afford children, should probably not have sex, or at a bare minimum, triple up on contraception (the words I used were "extreme precaution" I believe).

Where in the world does a statistic that says that most women who don't want sex use contraception fit into those statements? Yes, I got your intent from your last post. But I don't believe it fits my original assertion that MOST women have abortions for reasons other than for reasons they cannot control as named above. The vast majority of abortions are because the woman can't afford it, or doesn't want it, or is too immature, etc.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:25:29 -0000

Why do most women get abortions? Is it because "most" had failed contraception? No.

Here is the logical sequence again, JD.

1. Woman is sexually active but does not want to have a child.
2. Woman uses contraception to prevent pregnancy.
3. Contraceptive fails to work as it should.
4. Woman becomes pregnant.
5. Woman does not want to be pregnant (refer back to number 1) and decides to have an abortion.

Here is JD's argument:

1. If a woman does not want to have a baby, she should be responsible.
2. Definition of being responsible:
(a) not have sex
(b) use contraception
3. Woman chooses responsible option b: Use contraception.
4. Contraception fails, woman becomes pregnant, woman has abortion.

Now let's revisit what you said above:

Kathy. You've missed the original assertion, again.

Most sexually active women of childbearing age but don't want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant?

SO WHAT? That's obvious!!!!!! If they WANTED children, they wouldn't have used contraception!!!!!

Ummmm, yeah... that's true... so why have you been saying that if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant she should act responsibly by not having sex, OR by using contraception?

Continuing:

Now... Let's make that statement pertinent, shall we?
Why do most women get abortions? Is it because "most" had failed contraception? No.

Ummmm, no.... It's because they don't want to have a child. I agree with that. Although I feel I must add, in the interest of accuracy, that I never said most women have abortions because they didn't use contraception. I said that most unwanted pregnancies happen because contraception fails. After all, if you're having an abortion, it must mean you're pregnant, right? And if you don't want to be pregnant and you were using contraception, it must mean your contraceptive method failed, right? Otherwise, you wouldn't need an abortion, right?

Now, going back to something you have said repeatedly: Those women (the ones who have abortions because they don't want a child) are irresponsible because if they didn't want a child, they should have either not had sex or used contraception.

But most of them DID use contraception!

Then you say,
I site WHY women have abortions.
You come back with some health-class information about women who don't want children use contraception? What does that have to do with MY statement?

Here's what it has to do with your statement: Most women who have abortions don't want the baby. Most women who have abortions are pregnant (well, actually all women who have abortions are pregnant). Most women who don't want children were using contraception at the time they had sex, and became pregnant. Therefore, your repeated claim that women who have abortions are irresponsible because they should have used contraception doesn't make sense.

Finally you say,

That is what I have been saying this entire time!!!! This is what is so darned frustrating.

To which I reply:Oh, JD. Tell me about it. I know exactly how you feel.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:29:31 -0000

"As I've said at least three times now, most women of childbearing age who are sexually active but don't want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant."

Ok, Kathy. You've missed the original assertion, again.

Most sexually active women of childbearing age but don't want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant?

SO WHAT? That's obvious!!!!!! If they WANTED children, they wouldn't have used contraception!!!!!

Now... Let's make that statement pertinent, shall we?
Why do most women get abortions? Is it because "most" had failed contraception? No.

That is what I have been saying this entire time!!!! This is what is so darned frustrating.

I site WHY women have abortions.
You come back with some health-class information about women who don't want children use contraception? What does that have to do with MY statement?

GEEZ!

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:47:09 -0000

JD--

It does matter. And when you cite something on the Internet, you are supposed to provide either a link or some other way for the person you are speaking with to easily find it. How on earth am I supposed to find the above on Wikipedia with no link, no title, no way to identify or find the article on Wikipedia?

Even when I cite stuff, you don&#39t actually address the information, you attack its pertenance or validity.

And that is because most of the time when you "cite stuff," it *isn&#39t* pertinent, even if valid, and usually I can&#39t even find it (see above in this same comment).

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:43:49 -0000

As I&#39ve said at least three times now, most women of childbearing age who are sexually active but don&#39t want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:51:29 -0000

East Asian age reckoning is a concept and practice that originated in China and is used in East Asian cultures. Several East Asian cultures, such as Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mongolia, Taiwanese and Vietnamese, share this traditional way of counting a person&#39s age, in which a person&#39s age is counted starting from conception, rather than from physical birth. Newborns start at one year old, and each passing of a New Year, rather than the birthday, adds one year to the person&#39s age; this results in people being between 1 and 2 years older in Asian reckoning than in the Western version.

From Encyclopedia Britanica and Wikipedia (read it in encyclo, cut it from Wiki).

Does it matter, Kathy. Even when I cite stuff, you don&#39t actually address the information, you attack its pertenance or validity. The AGI info from the site I gave is accurate. It is merely the REASONS women have abortions.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:47:09 -0000

Even when I cite stuff, you don't actually address the information, you attack its pertenance or validity.

And that is because most of the time when you "cite stuff," it *isn't* pertinent, even if valid, and usually I can't even find it (see above in this same comment).

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:43:49 -0000

As I've said at least three times now, most women of childbearing age who are sexually active but don't want children were using contraception at the time they became pregnant.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:51:29 -0000

From Encyclopedia Britanica and Wikipedia (read it in encyclo, cut it from Wiki).

Does it matter, Kathy. Even when I cite stuff, you don't actually address the information, you attack its pertenance or validity. The AGI info from the site I gave is accurate. It is merely the REASONS women have abortions.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

Leonidas — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:20:51 -0000

. If you want statistics PER THE ALAN GUTTMACHER INSTITUTE SITE, then GO to the Alan Guttmacher Institute site.

Can be found here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/371100...

This is the study that JD mentions. Its there Kathy.

TABLE 3. Percentage distribution of women having an abortion, by their most important
reason for having the abortion, 2004 and 1987
Reason 2004 1987
(N=957) (N=1,773)
Not ready for a(nother) child†/timing is wrong 25 27
Can’t afford a baby now 23 21
Have completed my childbearing/have other people depending on me/
children are grown 19 8***
Don’t want to be a single mother/am having relationship problems 8 13***
Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child/feel too young 7 11**
Would interfere with education or career plans 4 10***
Physical problem with my health 4 3
Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 3 3
Was a victim of rape <0.5 1
Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion <0.5 1
Parents want me to have an abortion <0.5 <0.5
Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant <0.5 1***
Other 6 1
Total 100 100

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

Leonidas — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:20:51 -0000

. If you want statistics PER THE ALAN GUTTMACHER INSTITUTE SITE, then GO to the Alan Guttmacher Institute site.

Now it is most certainly not irresponsible for a woman with some of these objections to want an abortion, but it is irresponsible for women with these objections to have engaged in sexual activity if they didn't have access to contraception and the day after pill if that contraception failed (excepting in cases of rape and the health of the mother being endangered by the pregnancy).

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

CStanley — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:09:32 -0000

Kathy, I don&#39t have time to continue the discussion but just wanted to thank you too for this response. I find it so much better to speak in ways that help us understand each other instead of impugning motives...wouldn&#39t you agree? We&#39ll probably never agree on the substance of the issue, but we can better understand each other&#39s perspective.

Just one brief comment and then I have to run- about the part where you agreed that your position is based on a desire to &#39level the playing field&#39 since women are the ones who bear more natural consequence of sexual activity- this really just speaks to our fundamental, philosophical disagreement over the role of government. I don&#39t think it&#39s desirable nor even close to being possible for government to do that in so many instances, so I never consider that as the role that government should play. Life just isn&#39t fair, and there&#39s no way that we&#39re going to make it that way by fiat.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

CStanley — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:09:32 -0000

Kathy, I don't have time to continue the discussion but just wanted to thank you too for this response. I find it so much better to speak in ways that help us understand each other instead of impugning motives...wouldn't you agree? We'll probably never agree on the substance of the issue, but we can better understand each other's perspective.

Just one brief comment and then I have to run- about the part where you agreed that your position is based on a desire to 'level the playing field' since women are the ones who bear more natural consequence of sexual activity- this really just speaks to our fundamental, philosophical disagreement over the role of government. I don't think it's desirable nor even close to being possible for government to do that in so many instances, so I never consider that as the role that government should play. Life just isn't fair, and there's no way that we're going to make it that way by fiat.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:34:33 -0000

Nope. It would be a sacrament. :-)

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:29:51 -0000

Even the Japanese count age from the date of conception - as do many other cultures. So once you&#39re born, you are already nine months old.

Do you have a cite for this?

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:28:45 -0000

I don&#39t know how others feel, but I am thinking about how odd it is that JD has to get his Alan Guttmacher Institute information from "Johnston&#39s Archive" rather than getting it from... well, say... the Alan Guttmacher Institute?

And it IS Alan, not Allen.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:26:15 -0000

Of course you do.

I&#39m just wondering: As a practical matter, what do you think the punishment for suicide should be?

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

kathykattenburg — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 04:10:47 -0000

I&#39ll say it one more time for you. Read it carefully. Ok?
Per The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI):

That link you provided is to an unknown person on an anti-choice site. It is not per the Alan Guttmacher Institute. He takes information from the AGI and then claims they&#39re wrong. If you want statistics PER THE ALAN GUTTMACHER INSTITUTE SITE, then GO to the Alan Guttmacher Institute site.

I gave you a link to a highly respected, professional site and you give me a link to a site belonging to an individual who is unknown to anybody and has no credibility at all.

And then YOU tell ME to "Read it carefully, ok?"

You know very well, Kathy, that I provided unbiased statistics as to THE REASON WOMEN HAVE ABORTIONS. I said nothing about statistics about promiscuity.

JD, you are having trouble keeping track of your own misinformation. I never said that you said anything "about statistics about promiscuity." YOU said, repeatedly, that women who have abortions because they don&#39t want or can&#39t support the child are promiscuous. You defined promiscuous (paraphrasing) as having sex without taking precautions. Roro pointed out that your definition of "promiscuous" was incorrect. Here is your answer to her:

"And I stand corrected by the "promiscuous" definition. But besides symantics, which obviously is more important that the meat of the argument I presented; my assertion stands, correctly, that unwanted pregnancies are from lack of self control, or lack of precaution (my emphasis). If I do not want cancer, there is nothing I can do to stop it. If I do not want a child, I can CHOOSE not to have sex."

I don&#39t think that you yourself know what point you&#39re trying to make anymore. First you tell us that women have unwanted pregnancies because they didn&#39t use contraception. Then when I show you reliable information demonstrating that most sexually active women of childbearing age who don&#39t want to get pregnant DO use contraception, you (a) deny that it&#39s true and give me a new link to a junk site; (b) tell me again that "the vast majority of abortions are because the woman does not want the baby -- for a myriad of reasons" -- which is not the same issue as the contraception issue; and then (c) tell me, additionally, that "It is THESE women that could have prevented the pregnancy through more responsible methods. Contraception failure is less than 1% of the reason for abortions." You conclude by repeating your mantra that if women don&#39t want children they can choose not to have sex -- which also contradicts your simultaneous and previous assertions that you want women to "take precautions."

You seem not to understand the distinction between the reason for the pregnancy and the reason for the abortion. The first is because of, in most cases, contraceptive failure; and the second is because, in the majority of cases, the woman who is pregnant does not want, is not emotionally ready for, or cannot support a child at that time. The two are different. They&#39re not the same. You also don&#39t seem to be clear about which assertion you are trying to convince me of. Are you trying to argue that most women have abortions for social reasons, or are you trying to argue that most women have abortions because they did not take precautions. The first is probably true (which I argued against before, but CStanley persuaded me I was mistaken on); the second is most definitely NOT true.

And again:

"As a point of fact...the overwhelming majority of women of childbearing age who are sexually active and do not want children are using contraception."

That&#39s GREAT!
Once again..... EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE.

I&#39ll say it one more time for you. Read it carefully. Ok?
Per The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI):
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion...

No. You are the one who needs to read, and think, more carefully, not me. My statement that most women of childbearing age who are sexually active and don&#39t want children are using contraception WAS AND IS CORRECT, per the AGI, which you can go and look at again if you want to. That is THE RULE, not the exception. Remember, try to keep this straight: *We are talking now about "taking precautions" -- being responsible, using contraception. We are NOT talking right now about WHY most women have ABORTIONS. We are talking right now about WHY most women have unintended and unwanted PREGNANCIES.

Edited to add: Okay, JD, here is the problem, right here. This line:

"Contraception failure is less than 1% of the reason for abortions."

No one is saying contraception failure is the reason for ABORTIONS. It is (most frequently) the reason for the UNWANTED PREGNANCY. The reason for the abortion is that the pregnancy is unwanted. The reason for the pregnancy is contraceptive failure.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

adelinesdad — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 03:26:22 -0000

I don&#39t have much to add to the recent discussion, but I do have some parenthetical remarks. But since they are somewhat off-topic, I&#39ll first address the topic of being off-topic. I think after 100 or so comments the rules about "staying on topic" shouldn&#39t apply. After reading and writing the first 181 comments, I think I&#39ve earned to the right to post about my pet hamster if I felt like it.:) Besides, I don&#39t know what more can be said about the original topic that hasn&#39t already been said.

roro80: "The point, yet again, that men&#39s decisions about their own health care are not called into questions or restricted."

You&#39re right, but it is the unique biology of women that makes the abortion issue controversial. Is there a medical procedure that exclusively applies to men that is comparable to abortion in the moral questions that it presents? I can&#39t think of any. Is that fair? No. But neither is it fair that biology/mother nature/God/whatever has determined that women should bear the children and men don&#39t have to. Obviously, men and women are different. If separate-but-equal is not really "equal", then women and men will never be "equal" in that sense because we will never be equivalent. It seems the best we can do is deal with that the best we can and not expect equivalent treatment in cases where clearly it is biologically impossible.

"Yet it&#39s very easy for one of the parties to skirt this responsibility, and essentially impossible for the other party. “Busting his butt” is a great option for those rich women whose men take off."

I explained my position on the legality of abortion previously in this thread (I think it was this one--they&#39ve all run together in my head). I believe it should be illegal except when there are medical complications (which is quite broad, and in at least Kathy&#39s opinion would make it legal most of the time). I don&#39t expect you to care what I think should be legal or illegal, and I understand that the court has ruled on the subject, but my point is this: I think the man who abandons the mother of his child has committed an act at least as immoral, and at least as worthy of legal prohibition, as the women who gets an abortion.

Re: Why Should Public Dollars Pay for the Vanity of Old Men?

JeffersonDavis — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:27:15 -0000

Hey roro. Why is it illegal to commit suicide?
Isn&#39t that A WOMANS BODY as well? Don&#39t you have the right to hurt yourself or kill yourself?

No, that&#39s illegal. Why aren&#39t you arguing for suicide rights?